How Mythusmage Would Change D&D for 4th Edition if Wizards Hired Him

[glass]

Agree completely. The one thing that would stop me cold from buying a new edition would be to have it in a binder. It was tried, it failed miserably. Cut up your current book and punch holes in it. Let me know how long it takes before 50% of the pages are ripped and falling out.

Yeah. It's a shame really, because the 2e Monstrous Compendium concept was great in theory, but it just didn't work in practice. So you learn from it and move on.


glass.

 

[Belen]

(Now, a lot of this could be fixed by including more high-level and defensive feats in the next PHB. If the Fighter could build up defences that don't rely simply on armour, I wouldn't have an issue. As it is, though, a high-level Barbarian is usually superior to a high-level Fighter because the mithral armour negates the Fighter's AC benefit, the Fighter's feat chains have reached an end, leaving him with multiple 'low-level' chains or 'wasted' feats, and the Fighter has nothing that can match the Barbarian's rage.)

I find it hard to believe that there are so many mithral suits of armor lying around. IMC, mithral is a rare commodity.

 

[delericho]

I find it hard to believe that there are so many mithral suits of armor lying around. IMC, mithral is a rare commodity.

The gold piece limit of a Small City is 15,000 gp. Consequently, you might expect to find a suit of mithral full plate for sale in any small city, per the core assumptions of the game. (Actually, 326 of them - 5,001/10 * 15,000/2 * 1/11,500) Once you've got the base suit, having it enhanced to a +5 bonus is easy - certainly no harder for a mithral suit than a mundane one.

I'm not intending to criticise the way you run the game - it's your choice, and I've made similar calls in the past. However, it is a house rule to restrict access to magic and unusual items in this manner.

Edit: See DMG p.137 for details.

 

[Belen]

The gold piece limit of a Small City is 15,000 gp. Consequently, you might expect to find a suit of mithral full plate for sale in any small city, per the core assumptions of the game. (Actually, 326 of them - 5,001/10 * 15,000/2 * 1/11,500) Once you've got the base suit, having it enhanced to a +5 bonus is easy - certainly no harder for a mithral suit than a mundane one.

I'm not intending to criticise the way you run the game - it's your choice, and I've made similar calls in the past. However, it is a house rule to restrict access to magic and unusual items in this manner.

Edit: See DMG p.137 for details.

It is not a house rule to restrict what items can be found in a city. The DMG is a guidebook for DMs, not a documet carved in stone that details exactly how the game must be run on a minute by minute basis.

 

[delericho]

It is not a house rule to restrict what items can be found in a city. The DMG is a guidebook for DMs, not a documet carved in stone that details exactly how the game must be run on a minute by minute basis.

When we're considering the balance issues around items of a particular sort in the hands of characters of particular classes, the core assumptions of how easily such items can be found are the important assumptions. And those assumptions are as I indicated - a character might expect to find 200+ suits of mithral full plate for sale in any settlement of Small City size or larger. These are not vanishingly rare items per the core assumptions of the game.

Now, if the DM rules that no suits of mithral full plate are available for sale in a given Small City in the campaign world, that's his prerogative, and does not represent a house rule. However, if he rules that no suits of mithral full plate are available for sale in any Small City in the campaign world, that represents a change to the core assumptions of the game, and is a house rule.

A house rule is any rule in the campaign that deviates from the RAW. Some rules are minor changes, some are major changes, and some have a fundamental impact on gameplay. This is an example of a fairly minor change, but it is a change. Per the RAW, mithral full plate should be available for sale in Small Cities. If the DM decides that they are not available for sale in Small Cities, he has changed the rules, and introduced a house rule.

 

[Belen]

When we're considering the balance issues around items of a particular sort in the hands of characters of particular classes, the core assumptions of how easily such items can be found are the important assumptions. And those assumptions are as I indicated - a character might expect to find 200+ suits of mithral full plate for sale in any settlement of Small City size or larger. These are not vanishingly rare items per the core assumptions of the game.

You are arguing that because the DMG makes certain assumptions, then those assumptions constitute concrete rules. That is ridiculous.

Now, if the DM rules that no suits of mithral full plate are available for sale in a given Small City in the campaign world, that's his prerogative, and does not represent a house rule. However, if he rules that no suits of mithral full plate are available for sale in any Small City in the campaign world, that represents a change to the core assumptions of the game, and is a house rule.

No, it is not a house rule. A house rule would be that mithral or a metal with the properties of mithral does not exist. Even then, the game does not need mithral. Silver, cold iron, and adamantine can penetrate DR, but I have yet to see a monster that requires mithral to penetrate DR within the core rules.

A house rule is any rule in the campaign that deviates from the RAW. Some rules are minor changes, some are major changes, and some have a fundamental impact on gameplay. This is an example of a fairly minor change, but it is a change. Per the RAW, mithral full plate should be available for sale in Small Cities. If the DM decides that they are not available for sale in Small Cities, he has changed the rules, and introduced a house rule.

The DMG does not constitue RAW. It is a guidebook for DMs. The PHB is the book that contains the RAW. It is that book and that book alone that dictates the rules for the game according to the players. The DMG is a great guidebook with some good stuff, but the entire book is not holy dictum. Next, you will be saying the prestige classes are part of the RAW and that everyone is entitled to one.

 

[delericho]

You are arguing that because the DMG makes certain assumptions, then those assumptions constitute concrete rules. That is ridiculous.

This whole argument came about because I expressed a concern about mithral full plate as it relates to the Barbarian and Fighter classes. That concern is based on the core assumptions of the availability of that item. That your campaign does not make use of those assumptions has no bearing on the balance of that item in the rules as they currently stand.

No, it is not a house rule.

Fine. I disagree. But I have no desire to argue over what is and is not a house rule. The DM can do whatever he wants with the game anyway, and whether the changes he makes are house rules or setting details, or whatever else you want to call them is irrelevant.

 

[Umbran]

a character might expect to find 200+ suits of mithral full plate for sale in any settlement of Small City size or larger.

Not having my DMG around to double check that number, let us, for the moment, accept it.

Even if there are 200+ suits of the stuff around - it isn't magical, it doesn't resize to fit the new owner. This isn't a modern pair of blue jeans you can buy off the rack and expect it to fit, you know. The number of suits available that will fit should be much, much smaller.

Plus, what kind of attention is the character bringing to himself as he scours the town, asking people if they're willing to sell their armor to him? Because you won't get me to believe those 200 suits are hanging out in armor shops. They're too valuable and time-consuming to make for that. Those suits are in use, and you won't get it anonymously as ou would a pair of boots.

Nothing worth doing is ever simple

 

[delericho]

Even if there are 200+ suits of the stuff around - it isn't magical, it doesn't resize to fit the new owner. This isn't a modern pair of blue jeans you can buy off the rack and expect it to fit, you know. The number of suits available that will fit should be much, much smaller.

There is nothing in the rules about armour sizes beyond Small, Medium, Large, and so forth. A Medium character should have no difficulty finding a suit of armour to fit in a human town.

If the DM wishes to restrict that, he should be doing so equally for armour of any other special material, or even mundane full plate itself. The knock-on effects of doing this are fairly wide-ranging. Unless you're going out of your way to hamper the player just because he wants to get mithral armour.

(Quick question: if the PCs find a suit of non-magical armour on a defeated opponent, do you require that they check whether it will fit any PC? If so, what is the chance?)

Finally, mithral full plate +1 costs 12,500 gold pieces. Consequently, there should be 300 suits of this armour available in the typical small city, all of which would resize to suit a new wearer.

Plus, what kind of attention is the character bringing to himself as he scours the town, asking people if they're willing to sell their armor to him? Because you won't get me to believe those 200 suits are hanging out in armor shops. They're too valuable and time-consuming to make for that. Those suits are in use, and you won't get it anonymously as ou would a pair of boots.

The DMG states that that is the number of suits that are available for sale. Given the frequency that PCs sell the armour that they're using, I would expect that the armour is probably not in use. Perhaps display suits, suits sold by desperate nobles, newly-forged items made by local armourers, suits brought by travelling elven merchants, or whatever.

If all else fails, the PCs could simply commission an armourer to make the item for them. It will take time, but it should definately be possible in a game that sticks close to the default availability of items.

In any event, there's nothing in the rules or the nature of this item to support making it unusually difficult to acquire. Since we're discussing how this item impacts on the balance of various classes, the core assumptions of the game should be used. And, per those assumptions, there's nothing to prevent a character getting mithral full plate with relative ease.

 

[Mokona]

The 3rd edition Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual had fabulous cover designs and that is what I'd aspire to in the future. The 3.5 versions were too busy and too "heavy".