how to hit on girls without being creepy?

[Hida Bukkorosu]

on eye contact: how long are you supposed to hold eye contact? i know that "staring" can be considered creepy, but i think i overcompensate for that by hardly ever making eye contact...

is there a precise number of seconds you're supposed to hold eye contact for?

as for what i want out of a relationship i have a matrix

          |     cute*     |  non-cute*
-----------------------------------------
   geek   | potential LTR | just friends
-----------------------------------------
 non-geek | physical fun  | no interest

*cute meaning appealing to my own personal sense of what attracts me

i don't think i can pull off the confidence thing, i have no ability to fake emotions. it was a lot of trouble when i worked at the movie theatre i couldn't force myself to "smile" when i did not feel happy.

alcohol isn't an option for a couple reasons: 1.) gout, and 2.) i don't trust myself to not do something that would hurt myself or others under the influence. 3.) i would become addicted, i have an addictive personality and little to no "willpower".

my major goal right now is to have my first kiss before i graduate. i'm open to the idea of love if i meet the right person or people but am not opposed to a purely physical relationship either. i also don't want to decieve girls as to where they stand in the matrix either, i don't feel it's right to make a girl think you want an LTR when she's in the "physical fun" category.

in a perfect world, i'd be able to go up to girls and say "hi. you're hot. wanna make out?" in a simple and direct way, and even if the girl was not interested in making out with me she would be flattered instead of offended and politely turn me down and i would politely move on and ask the next girl.

unfortunately, society frowns on this open honesty and prefers these silly convoluted dating rituals, and its so ingrained in the culture to the point where expressing interest is offensive to the point of being illegal unless it's done in a certain way.

so i'm trying to figure out how to, well, approach girls with the intent of asking them out, without making them extremely uncomfortable, in a way in which i can get an honest acceptance or refusal, and in a way in which people won't look at me and say "call security there's some creepy guy harassing girls!".

one more question: say a girl is sitting in the cafeteria or on a bench reading a book or studying... how do i know if she does or doesn't want to be interrupted? see a lot of times i'll be bored sitting around on campus, and i'll start reading a book or studying but wouldn't mind being interrupted by someone interested in talking to me particularily if it was a girl... so my question is how do i differntiate the girls who are thinking like me in that regard from the ones who are seriously studying / engrossed in their reading and don't want to be bothered, so i know which ones i can safely try to "chat up"?

 

[Brennin Magalus]

Complement her. A decent bare-bones hit-on is "Hi. I like your shoes."

Compliment a girl on her shoes? You might as well ask her where she bought them and if they come in your size.

 

[Xath]

Compliment a girl on her shoes? You might as well ask her where she bought them and if they come in your size.

The complement "nice shoes" has a following phrase that would offend Eric's Grandma.

However, in general, compliments are a good way to go.

 

[Planesdragon]

Courting is now called stalking.
Wooing is harassment.
What once was considered charming is now called creepy.

There's one huge difference between stalking/harassment and wooing/courtship. Namely, a gentleman seeking a woman's hand not only open declares their intent in as formal a manner as possible (in writing at the very least), but immediately ceases pursuit if the woman makes it clear she is not interested.

The problem today is that the social system that built up over centuries to handle courtship and coupling as totally broken down, leaving the less-charismatic among us often left adrift and wondering what to do next.

Getting back on topic: as a married geek of seven years as of today (well, tonight: 1830 Eastern, 1/1/98), my suggestion to someone wondering how to initiate courtship is to NOT do so. Don't look for a "woman" or a "girl." Look for a friend first, and let the rest it fall into place.

Remember: About 45% of the population could potentially be a date for you. (The rest are either the wrong gender or disinterested.) However, closer to 1% would actually be a friend of yours -- less, actually, since friendship is hard-limited by human cognitive ability. I.e., if your college has 50,000 students, that's about 20,000 potential dates and probably closer to 20 potential friends.

Oh, and btw:

The advice you have been given thus far in the thread will put you directly on the path to being the girl's "Good Friend". That means--in essence--no sex. IF that's what you are looking for, then great, go for it.

The man's single. (Otherwise he wouldn't -- er, shouldn't -- still be looking.)

Being polite and respectful to a woman is the path to getting not just a one-night stand (which being mean will get you plenty of), but being married -- which is a better deal in just about every way.

The kernal of truth in what TB says, however, it something that's easy to ignore and forget to do if you're focused on being nice. Be a man. On a basic chemical level men are agressive and active while women are supportive and understanding, and while being able to cross the divide is a good thing (same goes for the ladies, as well), jumping to the other side wholesale will only convince the woman's reproductive chemistry to treat you like any other nonagressive, supporting and understanding person -- a friend, not a potential mate.

(If you've been a geek all throughout high school and can't figure out how to be agressive, pick a sport or instrument that you like and would preferably give you a chance to perform. If the college doesn't have anything, try looking for the local reinactment or medievalist groups and fencing clubs -- geek-girls tend to congregate at such activites, and there's no better mate for a geek-boy than a geek-girl.)

 

[Humanophile]

on eye contact: how long are you supposed to hold eye contact? i know that "staring" can be considered creepy, but i think i overcompensate for that by hardly ever making eye contact...

is there a precise number of seconds you're supposed to hold eye contact for?

See, this here is my problem with most forms of relationship advice. If I were particularly arsed, I could program a computer to watch a girl and blink a little red light when you should break eye contact. If you don't have that trick down, however, all you can do is practice. You can't consciously keep track of all the necessary factors without coming off as really odd.

my major goal right now is to have my first kiss before i graduate. i'm open to the idea of love if i meet the right person or people but am not opposed to a purely physical relationship either. i also don't want to decieve girls as to where they stand in the matrix either, i don't feel it's right to make a girl think you want an LTR when she's in the "physical fun" category.

in a perfect world, i'd be able to go up to girls and say "hi. you're hot. wanna make out?" in a simple and direct way, and even if the girl was not interested in making out with me she would be flattered instead of offended and politely turn me down and i would politely move on and ask the next girl.

unfortunately, society frowns on this open honesty and prefers these silly convoluted dating rituals, and its so ingrained in the culture to the point where expressing interest is offensive to the point of being illegal unless it's done in a certain way.

so i'm trying to figure out how to, well, approach girls with the intent of asking them out, without making them extremely uncomfortable, in a way in which i can get an honest acceptance or refusal, and in a way in which people won't look at me and say "call security there's some creepy guy harassing girls!".

Ahhhh. I remember when I was where you are now. But you have to learn how to crawl before you can walk. Teflon Billy's right; my advice very likely won't get you laid. What it will do is help you learn how to talk to girls more easily, so that the required steps to asking a girl out don't seem so daunting. First things first, your goal is to learn how to initiate and hold a simple, pointless conversation. Asking to get together later is only the cherry on top if things go well. First kiss/sexual relation come later, and if you're like most of us, will end up in the "worst relationship" thread. But try to master the basics before moving up to the advanced rules.

(You can try chatting up girls online too; there are plenty of sites where you can meet people. Remember again that it's just practice/confidence building, and that there are a million and one things that matter to social interaction that don't come across well over the internet.)

one more question: say a girl is sitting in the cafeteria or on a bench reading a book or studying... how do i know if she does or doesn't want to be interrupted? see a lot of times i'll be bored sitting around on campus, and i'll start reading a book or studying but wouldn't mind being interrupted by someone interested in talking to me particularily if it was a girl... so my question is how do i differntiate the girls who are thinking like me in that regard from the ones who are seriously studying / engrossed in their reading and don't want to be bothered, so i know which ones i can safely try to "chat up"?

As a rule of thumb, assume that she's open for approach. If she's busy, she'll usually tell you. (I used to motion at a nearby seat and ask "may I?"; the more smoothly you can work this in the better.) If she says that she's busy or something else that's not a "yeah", move on.

(And it's sad that this needs to be said, but once shot down, find a personal activity to go back to or leave the area. Going from girl to girl in one area = very creepy. Try not to have any one area that you "over-hunt" either, for obvious reasons.)

 

[Planesdragon]

on eye contact: how long are you supposed to hold eye contact?

Hold? Just a few seconds, until you get to know her. Even if she's got the most gorgeous eyes in the whole world, staring and not saying "Could I possibly have a name, to go with the most beautiful face I've ever seen" is a bad idea.

However, you should be making eye contact for the majority of a conversation. Eye contact is neither optional nor a one-time thing. Blink, nod your head, smile, and keep looking back at her face. If you worry about being creepy, smile and look at something else for a second.)

as for what i want out of a relationship i have a matrix

Please tear that up and never look at it again. It won't do you any good, and having a tracking system of any kind will only make you despondent -- which will make you LESS likely to find feminine accompanyment, not more.

i don't think i can pull off the confidence thing, i have no ability to fake emotions. it was a lot of trouble when i worked at the movie theatre i couldn't force myself to "smile" when i did not feel happy.

What, you mean a girl smiling at you isn't enough to make you feel happy? If you get past "hello" and she responds, you have reason to be genuinely happy. Don't try and fake it -- if a particular girl talking to you doesn't make you even a little bit happy, then it's not going to work at all.

in a perfect world, i'd be able to go up to girls and say "hi. you're hot. wanna make out?" in a simple and direct way, and even if the girl was not interested in making out with me she would be flattered instead of offended and politely turn me down and i would politely move on and ask the next girl.

unfortunately, society frowns on this open honesty and prefers these silly convoluted dating rituals, and its so ingrained in the culture to the point where expressing interest is offensive to the point of being illegal unless it's done in a certain way.

It's not the honesty that's the question, it's the presumption you seem to have that sexual relations (which a kiss falls under) are possible without knowing the person. Unless you're going to go the alcohol route, don't expect to find anyone that loose.

As for a "simple and direct way" : Make your first line an introduction. (i.e, "hey, what a beautiful sky." "Is that Shannara?" or "Can you believe these classes?") If she responds, introduce yourself, and remember her name when she gives it in turn. Once you have a name, you can either continue the conversation or suggest a more formal rendevous. (Offering to buy her a drink -- hard, soft, or caffinated -- is a good opener.) If she accepts, follow through on your plans.

At the first formal encounter, ask for a method to contact her again. She may give you a telephone number or e-mail address, or she may suggest another formal encounter. (i.e., "how about you meet me here again tomorrow / next week?"). If the encounter is a "date", a romantic gesture is appropriate -- a kiss on the back of the hand is a good classic, but I think kissing on the lips is something that you should wait for the woman to initiate.

Please don't think that this is complex. The type of girl that would make out with someone they don't know is NOT someone that you want to be sharing bodily fluids with. A name, a bit of conversation, and a romantic gesture are a very straighforward way to get a girl to make out with you.

one more question: say a girl is sitting in the cafeteria or on a bench reading a book or studying... how do i know if she does or doesn't want to be interrupted?

Try and interrupt her, gently. If she ignores you or asks to be left alone, she doesn't want to be interrupted.

Geek-girls tend to read, and like talking about what they're reading. My best friend met my wife by interrupting her reading of a fantasy novel at a rev. war reenactment, and if he hadn't done that and later introduced us I'm not entirely sure how we'd have ended up together.


Oh, and while I'm rambling:

The art of courtship is finding out what the object of your affection desires in a mate, and shaping her perception of you into that ideal mold. While some silver-tongued soundrels are able to do so by false words, the far more preferrable way is through wholeheartedly adopting or accentuating those aspects your Juliet wishes to see in her Romeo.

And never forget that in this blessed age, women can court and woo as well as men. Do not assume that your Juliet does not desire to join your roleplaying game or watch a match of whatever your chosen spectator sport is alongside you. Always ask and invite; if you and your Juliet find yourselves in marital bliss, adopting the customs and wishes of each other will be the most vital key to maintaining your love.

 

[LightPhoenix]

I'm gonna whole-heartedly agree with Teflon Billy as well. Being a nice guy rarely gets you in the front door, unless you're looking for a friend. Of course, neither does being a total jerk, that just gets you smacked, kneed, and labelled as a creep. As with most things in life, a happy medium is the best approach. Being a nice guy helps keep women though, which is an important distinction.

One important thing to understand about women, that I've found generally true, is that women are as self-conscious as men are, and generally more so, thanks to many modern societies. Do not underestimate how effective a simple compliment can be... not just for women, but for everyone. Even if she's got a boyfriend, chances are she'll appreciate the compliment. As long as it's somewhat civil, that is. Almost everyone likes to be told that they're good in some way.

It's important to make yourself noticed. Complimenting a girl is a good way to do this, for the above reasons. Keep in mind that women generally have their pick of single men, and that puts you in competition with every other single guy. It's nothing personal, that's just the way it is. Make yourself stand out, and you'll generally do better.

And for the record, I'm not saying dating is easy for women. Believe it or not, they have it just as hard as we men do. They just have an advantage in meeting people that we do not. They also have to deal with creepy guys and potential rape, which is much worse. Of course, we do now have to deal with sexual harassment charges, which can very easily be used against a man. That's nothing compared to rape though.

Also understand that women tend to play games, especially at our age. No, not all women do, and not all women mean ill by them. It ties into insecurities, as well as (at least in the US) a societal pressure that tells them that they have to do these things. A girl may show interest in you, and then go and flirt with another guy just to gauge how you'll act. It sucks, it's dumb, but it's what happens. Note to women: the easiest way to find out if a guy is interested in you is to ask.

Finally, some guys just have it easier. Take care of yourself... stay fit, study hard, and be sure to use soap! However, some guys will be hotter than you more than likely... don't give up because of that. Play to your strengths, and work on your weaknesses. For example, pretty much every girl I talk to comments on my pretty blue eyes, so I make sure to make eye contact. However, I know I'm not overly sexy, so I instead work on being charming to make up for that. Still, I make sure I look my best when I go out.

Despite all of this, understand two very important points. First, women are complex, they're hard to understand for us men, and that you're never going to fully understand the whys of how they work. Also, they're human, which means every single one is different. What one may find charming another would find disgusting. There's no accounting for taste, so don't be discouraged if a woman says that you're not her type. One time I brought a girl I thought was into me out with a couple of my friends, and she proceded to hit on one of them all night. And this after he told the grossest story he knew (and I will not repeat here, because Eric's Grandma would pass out in shock).

It's the sign of a good friend that he'll intentionally try to make himself less desirable because he knows you're into a girl.

Second, you will fail. Unless you're Don Juan, you'll probably fail a lot more than you succeed. This is quite okay. In fact, it's good, because humility is just as important as haughtiness when hitting on women. Sometimes thought it just will not work out. Do not push it, because that's textbook creepy.

Don't be afraid of failure. Make a fool of yourself, and don't take yourself so seriously. Have a laugh with your friends over how you got slapped by the cute redhead, or almost started a fight when you realized her bf was nearby. People (not just women) have more than five senses, and body language speaks a lot. Your chances are much worse if you're a bumbling nervous idiot, or totally afraid of rejection, because they can tell, and it goes back to making an impression. This doesn't apply just to dating, but to everything in life.

Oh, and try not to crap where you eat. That is to say, generally avoid work romances. It gets really awkward when things go south, especially if it's a bad break-up. I ended up needing to quit a job because of one break-up. Admittedly, it was a cruddy job (delivery for the campus late-night people), and I had another job, but the point still stands.

Another problem arises when a girl is with her friends. I've found it actually works better to talk to her with her friends around. For one thing, it affords a blanket of security for her, and she'll be more comfortable with the whole interaction. For another, it's even more bold to go up to a group of women than a single one. Finally, there's always the chance that another woman in that group will take an interest. Just be sure to try and hit a lull in the conversation... don't interrupt rudely into the middle of a long conversation. It's not always possible, and can be difficult to time, but do your best.

Finally, don't think you're gonna get laid straight off. In fact, unless it's what you are looking for, it's generally a bad sign when that happens. It means she's not looking for anything long-term, and probably means she's just using you for pleasure. Which does tend to make a guy feel good, I'll admit. Just don't think you're going to get anything more than a short, mostly-meaningless fling from it.

 

[Queen_Dopplepopolis]

one more question: say a girl is sitting in the cafeteria or on a bench reading a book or studying... how do i know if she does or doesn't want to be interrupted? see a lot of times i'll be bored sitting around on campus, and i'll start reading a book or studying but wouldn't mind being interrupted by someone interested in talking to me particularily if it was a girl... so my question is how do i differntiate the girls who are thinking like me in that regard from the ones who are seriously studying / engrossed in their reading and don't want to be bothered, so i know which ones i can safely try to "chat up"?

If she's just sitting around reading or studying, take a chance. If she's in a place with lots of open seats, sit down near her. Ask her what she is reading... find out if it is for school or pleasure... simply say something like, "Oh, I did not mean to interrupt your studying/reading... I have seen you around before/I remember you from class/some clever thing that shows you have a connection to her in some way without seeming overly zealous/ and just wanted to say 'hi'."

At this point, a bright smile and looking her in the eye is important.

"If you wouldn't mind giving me your number, I would love to call you sometime to chat when you're not busy (with school work)."**

And, from there it is her go. However, I know that if I were approached by a nice, sweet, well-groomed man - even if he seemed a little shy - in that fashion I would be more than flattered and, if I were not married, I would totally give him my number and look forward to his call.

** This is all under the assumption that she is reading something that you have not read or are not interested in... if she happens to be reading something for pleasure and you have read something by the same author or something, that just adds to the stuff you can talk about. "Oh, I have read that" or "I have read _______ by the same author" is an awesome way to start a conversation without sounding creepy at all.

 

[Nellisir]

Getting back on topic: as a married geek of seven years as of today (well, tonight: 1830 Eastern, 1/1/98), my suggestion to someone wondering how to initiate courtship is to NOT do so. Don't look for a "woman" or a "girl." Look for a friend first, and let the rest it fall into place.

While I don't disagree with this, I wasn't friends with either my wife or my previous girlfriend. The gf was an acquaintance (yes, from work), and my wife was just a cute single girl I asked out after chatting with for awhile. Neither one has or had hobbies that neatly intersected with mine -- similar interests, but not similar expressions. My wife is a jock - most of her weeknights are split between the gym, taking our dogs to canine agility, playing adult co-ed volleyball, and coaching volleyball at the local tech college. I'm a weird mix of geek-carpenter -- my time is split between writing or internet surfing and working on my house. But it works perfectly for us; she's logical and good with numbers, I'm intuitive and good with words. I can walk up to strange people and get information, she can make small talk with friends when I'm bored to tears.

Cheers
Nell.

 

[ASH]

My only piece of advice: Be yourself... If she thinks its creepy, she's not ment for you. But keep in mind that when I say be yourself, i mean be yourself at your best...