How to stop player whining? Drama!

[Doctor DM]

Yeah poo bomber is from Janx earlier in the thread. I think it's a good (and funny) analogy.

At some point the kid who eats his own poo stops because he sees that other kids don't do it (and will criticize him for it), or he becomes a hermit and mails out poo-bombs to his enemies. Either way, problem solved.

What you got here is a poo-boy. I don't care how much a friend he is outside the game, or how good he does when he's good in game, if he's causing that much ruckus, he's not a good gamer and he's being an abusive friend.

As, for whiney douche, that's what he's being. Complaining jerk? Protesting ass? I don't know how else to describe it.

If I'm starting to seem angry, it's because I am. In my 8 years of role-playing this is by far the best game I've been involved in. The DM has really put a ton of work into it to create a really great, flavorful world and story. And our characters get tons, I mean TONS of extra bonuses and abilities. The problem player himself is allowed to play a Chaotic Good Paladin, who can freely multiclass into fighter and go back to Paladin. He's gotten masterwork weapons for like half price. And he has favored enemy against Undead AND outsiders, just becasue the DM thought the Paladin class was a little weak and it fit his character. Oh, AND he was just able to learn a wizard spell for free, just from studying a spellbook for a few weeks. But he has literally said the DM is always screwing us over.

I've been trying to give him the benefit of the doubt, he doesn't get the rules that well, blah blah blah, but now I don't think that's the case. He just can't handle "losing", and acts like a kid about it.

If we boot him the game will probably die, because one of the players is friends with just the problem player. (he's friends with the rest of us too when we're playing, but he only knows and hangs out with the problem player outside the game.) And if the problem player was booted I know it would feel too weird for the guy to play without him, like he's going behind his back or something. We could probably find another 2 players, but it wouldn't be the same great game.

But I'm really sick of this, so idk... we'll probably talk to him about it again and give him another chance. Who knows. I'll keep you posted.

 

[Holy Bovine]

Sigh. The Poo Bomber returned.

I'm really sorry (sadly not surprised) to hear your friend went back to his old ways. I do want to say however that the campaign you are playing in sounds FREAKING AWESOME! I mean clowns? Rifles? Explosive circus tents?

 

[Doctor DM]

@ Zelda: Yeah I hear you. I'm just really frustrated now. The guy is probably my best friend, and like I've said a bunch of times already a generally great guy. But I have NEVER seen anyone act like this in almost a decade of playing, and that includes ACTUAL 12 year olds and some serious noobs. I really look forward to playing this game every other week, and he is seriously damaging it.

About the high AC thing, there are four of us (with multiple atks) and one enemy. And to balance it out, he only had like 30 hit points. We can drop him in like 3 hits. One character can technically even drop him in ONE hit. I guess that can annoy some people, but I think it's pretty legit personally.

 

[DumbPaladin]

@ Zelda: Yeah I hear you. I'm just really frustrated now. The guy is probably my best friend, and like I've said a bunch of times already a generally great guy.

You DO keep saying this. But I'm confused. If he's that good of a friend to YOU, you should be able to tell him, in no uncertain terms, just how much he's ruining your enjoyment of this D&D game with his behavior. If you haven't told him this already, I recommend you tell him tomorrow. Literally, tomorrow.

The DM is not going to keep him forever. He may be doing it because he thinks if he fires your best friend, he'll lose you as a player to. You may need to let the DM know that won't happen and he should act however he sees it appropriate. But I think I've said in my past posts that this is likely to simply lead to other people in the group deciding to leave, or no longer coming because it's such a chore to deal with YOUR best friend.

Waiting another week isn't gonna change anything. Not unless the facts have changed. Have they?

 

[Merkuri]

The guy is probably my best friend, and like I've said a bunch of times already a generally great guy. But I have NEVER seen anyone act like this in almost a decade of playing, and that includes ACTUAL 12 year olds and some serious noobs. I really look forward to playing this game every other week, and he is seriously damaging it.

You need to tell him this. Pretty much exactly like this, too.

And if he agrees he needs to change and doesn't change you need to call him out at the table as soon as he starts. Don't let him ruin another session. He may not realize he's doing it if he doesn't get reminded, so you need to point it out to him as soon as he starts slipping.

 

[Zelda Themelin]

That really sucks, I feel for you. Your game sounds fun, even if some rule things seem bit annoying, based on my personal experience in high lv games. So I am not telling you it's wrong etc, just mentioning things that I find hard to balance in d&d so game would stay fun and combat progress quickly enough.

I think his issues to react to game that way come from playing too much computer games. Especially if he has played wow or similar game.

When my friends game those computer gemes too much, gaming with them sucks. Same goes for me, and generally playing years wow has affected even my ability to dm games as well as I used too. It gives what I call "need to get it now, not later" personality type, and of course "I hate to loose". Most importanly though is that we don't have so much inspiration from other books, games, hobbies, conversations.

One of my friends has gained very touchy nature and this kinda attitude "I can't play starcraft with your other friend because he is so good and I am not good enough" and I go "he doesn't care you play badly you only learn playing and he would like to play with you" and he then "no, I dont' stand being bad at it, I rather play wow even if I don't like it anymore". Frustrating.
He also gives up very easily if things arent going well and his dm:ing style expects players run from everything dangerous and if we don't he arrenges some stupid excuse that forces us to. Oh, and he was always bit tending to that direction.

Lol, just to give example of my problematic friend, who I still play roleplaying games sometimes but rarely. And I have to force myself to sometimes play rpg:s with him because he is a friend (and touichy and stubborn), it's not horrible just very boring (and he is quite blind to all yawns). And he rather is dm, he hates loosing control and despite he claims he wants to play he always turn in whiner no matter how game goes. Also no matter how uber his character is, it's not good enough. Especially if someone else is better.


Maybe your friend would rather like dm?

I hope talking helps, but if he is like my friend and has similar "security issues and fear of loosing control, even in game of imagination" then you are in bit of trouble, since those qualities rise from deep stuck emotions.

But he did have his cool moments for few sessions so there might be hope. It would be sad to break gaming group and excating sounding game.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

The player does sound like a bit of a douche.

Besides that fact though, your game sounds like an awesome amount of fun! It really seems like the DM is doing a good job of making a fun game (ignoring the problem player for a second).

Olaf the Stout

 

[Doctor DM]

Alright this is gonna be another long post, but here's my final plan:

I AM going to wait until next time we play to handle this.

The other day I ran into our other newbie player for a couple seconds, the guy who is the problem players friend. He's a cool guy. Great player too, although new, and also isn't exactly an expert on the rules. Anyway, the guy says we gotta talk to our DM about the game being so hard, because Problem Player can't take how hard it is, and that he too actually thinks it's a little hard at times. Other New Player also said not to get him wrong, he's having a great time and loves playing, but he thinks it's a little too tough sometimes too. We were both on the run and couldn't talk much, but I said ok, I hear you. I'll explain some stuff to you later, but I hear you.

So basically I think Problem Player has kind of brainwashed this player into thinking it's too hard. Like I said Problem Player has "us vs. the DM" issues and thinks the DM is out to get us. I think he kind of thinks the DM is making things up and not following the rules, and it's unfairly too hard. I believe he thinks this because it's not traditional D&D, it's western steampunk running about 75% 3.5 rules and 25% homebrew. He's muttered stuff before about "opponents not being appropiate for our level". So his issue is mostly a mix of not understanding CR in D&D, but also he just seems to think everyone we fight, including boss villians who are ment to take on the whole party should have similar stats and abilities to him. I don't think he understands our opponents are meant to fight a party of FOUR characters, not just one, that's why he thinks they're overpowered when they're better then him one on one.

So I'm actually super happy that Other New Player thinks that it's a hard game, because now the DM and I can give a little lesson on how hard things are in D&D, and not seem like we're picking on problem player. The DM and I plan on asking the group, especially Problem Player, what exactly they think has been unfair or too hard. After we hear their complaints, here's the RPG lesson:

You guys haven't played a long term D&D campaign before, you guys don't know what hard is. It may seem tough, but it's really not. We've been playing for 8+ years, so we're going to show you what you see in D&D.

This game is NOT that hard. On a scale of 1 to 10, it's probably a 6. We've had one tough encounter that was like an 8 and a 1/2, but that's about it. The DM has done a good job of mixing mostly right on par with our level challenges, some tougher ones, and some easy ones as well. Very good mix actually, he's got to be just about spot on with the DMG's recomendation for X% of easy fights, X% of hard fights, ect.

We'll address their issues of what they think was too hard. High AC of the clown was offset by extremly low HP, and is really not that high. The Clown was a 24. We are all 20's or 21's. Problem Player has a shield he can activate to get to 23 AC. The Clowns was a massive ONE POINT higher than his. And once again, there are four of us, and one enemy here.

Setting off the trap: Problem player has said "I guess we have to declare EVERY SINGLE tiny detail we do." Well no you don't, but searching for a trap IS something you need to actively announce. It's a freakin TRAP. It's supposed to be hidden, it's supposed to surprise you. And technically you're not even supposed to be able to find them unless you have the trapfinding class ability, which you don't, but the DM lets us all search anyway. AND because you are new, despite what you think the DM actually cut you a huge break. There were tripwires like every 15 ft in that warehouse, but the DM was being VERY nice and let you avoid them because you're a noob. But he drew the line when you charged up the stairs without checking.

Problem Player has also mentioned a few times how it was CRAZYNESS that several members of our party (one at a time, not as a group) were out-grappled by a werewolf. Well it's a freakin werewolf. Unarmed close combat is kind of their thing. It's a giant, hulked out, savage beast. You're a regular man who focuses on ranged combat. You really think you should have an easy time wrestling this thing? It doesn't work that way. But hey, I bet you're a hell of a lot better at shooting than the werewolf is. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses.

And any other supposedly "unfair" things are pretty easily explained as you can see.

I'm also going to show them some OFFICIAL Wizards of the Coast monsters, that have an appropriate challenge rating for our level.

I just randomly grabbed the MM2 and opend it to the "C"s and got some good ones. We're 5th level, so I picked the Chain Golem, Clockwork Horror (Gold), both CR5, the Catoblepas CR6, and a Dire Horse CR4.

I didn't put any effort into finding hard monsters or anything, but these are waaaaaay tougher then most of what we've been facing. High AC's, high damage, and crazy ablities like save or die and sunder. According to the people who make this game, these are average challenges for us. We should be able to take four a day. If they want to we can run some mock combats against these. If you want to see some real tough DMing we can fight them in some fun scenarios too, how about taking on that Chain Golem in a small, pitch black room?

I'd also like to point out all the extra bonuses and advantages our characters get, and the DM will share a couple behind the screen breaks he's given the new players.

I feel that should adequately illustrate that this is not an unfair, too hard game. The DM is not our opponent, he's a storyteller. He can "beat us" at any time if he wants to, but he doesn't. He actually has our backs, and the only thing he's trying to do to us is make sure we have fun. D&D was designed to be challenging, we're playing it the way it's supposed to be played. Do you not like overcoming challenges? Should the whole game just be a cake walk? I know I don't want to play a game like that.

I really think that should clear up the problem. However I'm still going to let problem player know that even if he didn't know what was going on, still his reactions have been inapropriate, and they're making the rest of the group uncomfortable. If he has issues about the game we can talk about it and work it out, but don't be angry and beligarant about it, because it WILL kill this game that we all love. We want to have a good time, and we want YOU to have a good time. Now let's hunt some orc!

So that's that. We're not going to be douches about it, but we are going to be very matter of fact, and stern.

Any advice about this spiel? Anything we should add, or leave out?

If this doesn't work, he's hopeless.

 

[DumbPaladin]

Any advice about this spiel? Anything we should add, or leave out?

If this doesn't work, he's hopeless.

Yes, I recommend you add that this is personally going to impact your friendship with him! Clearly you are really upset about his behavior, and I find it hard to believe that further sessions like this are going to be conducive to maintaining a healthy relationship with him.

More importantly, "if this doesn't work" ... what are you going to do about it? I'd come up with a plan. Will he eventually be kicked out of the group? Or are you waiting until he sways (or as you call it "brainwashes") other members into enjoying the game less? It sounds like his mentality is starting to become a cancer within the group.

You are well within your rights to handle this however you see fit ... but I don't see the current plan of inaction leading to a good ending for your group.

(Yes, I'm equating talking to him as "inaction" in this case, because you already tried that, and it failed.)

Good luck!

 

[Olaf the Stout]

Your last post actually reminded me of a game I played in about 8 years ago. It was a game set in Harn and combat was very brutal. You really wanted to avoid fights wherever possible as death was a real possibility in every combat you faced.

I decided to bring one of my friends along to a session to show him a different style of game (he had only played D&D at that point). The DM didn't have a problem with him coming along to play and gave him an NPC that had been travelling with the party to play.

I don't recall the exact details, but my friend managed to get his character killed about halfway through his very first session. Despite the deadly nature of combat, all the regular players in the group had managed to keep their characters alive for quite a few sessions at that point.

While I can't remember exactly how my friend's character died, I do remember the DM giving him several outs to avoid dying (you all know that when the DM says "Are you sure that's what you want to do?" that it's generally a big hint NOT to do that.)

On the drive home my friend complained to me that the DM "had it in for him" from the start and deliberately killed his PC. When I explained to him the several opportunities the DM had given him to save his character from the situation he dismissed them and reiterated that the DM was "out to get him" and would have just killed him anyway.

A couple of years later I DM'd my friend in a D&D campaign and found he had the same paranoia in my game, despite me saying to him many, many times that I was not out to "get" his character. In the end I simply stopped playing with him and in hindsight I'm glad I did as I don't think he ever would have changed his ways.

So maybe your friend is the same, he thinks the DM is out to get him, even when it is obvious to others that isn't the case. Hopefully for you he isn't a lost cause like my (now former) friend was.

Olaf the Stout