D&D 4E How would you re-envision Darksun with 4e?

[katahn]

I suspect that by the time WotC re-releases Dark Sun, the psionics rules will be out already.

The real problem with defiling magic is that it balances apples against oranges. From what I can see, one of WotC's key rules of game design--and it's a good one--is this: "Never balance a mechanical advantage against an RP disadvantage or vice versa."

Defiling magic violates this rule. The advantage to defiling is an increase in mechanical power, while the disadvantage is, essentially, "Everybody hates you." It's especially bad because the defiler's RP disadvantage is apt to get not just the defiler but the entire party into trouble.

I think that before WotC can release Dark Sun 4th Edition, they'll have to figure out a mechanical disadvantage and an RP advantage to playing a defiler.

Not necessarily, defiling could have mechanically placed effects that drain hit points from all nearby living things - starting with enemies by possibly extending to allies if the effect is great enough. Defiling magic could also incorporate a progressive system of "mutations" on the defiler that over time leave them looking very much like an abomination of sorts (or possibly even adding the subtype) - a net effect here could be stacking charisma penalties.

The important thing is it needs to be fitting to the iconic theme of "magic defiles/corrupts the natural world" much more than it specifically needs the same or even similar mechanical effect that it had in prior editions of D&D.

 

[Dausuul]

Not necessarily, defiling could have mechanically placed effects that drain hit points from all nearby living things - starting with enemies by possibly extending to allies if the effect is great enough. Defiling magic could also incorporate a progressive system of "mutations" on the defiler that over time leave them looking very much like an abomination of sorts (or possibly even adding the subtype) - a net effect here could be stacking charisma penalties.

Exactly, those would be mechanical disadvantages to balance out whatever mechanical advantage you get. WotC will need to put in something like that. It will also need an RP advantage to balance out the RP disadvantage of being universally despised and feared.

The important thing is it needs to be fitting to the iconic theme of "magic defiles/corrupts the natural world" much more than it specifically needs the same or even similar mechanical effect that it had in prior editions of D&D.

I absolutely agree.

 

[katahn]

Exactly, those would be mechanical disadvantages to balance out whatever mechanical advantage you get. WotC will need to put in something like that. It will also need an RP advantage to balance out the RP disadvantage of being universally despised and feared.

An RP advantage isn't necessarily needed as far as I'm concerned. A more smart-alecky answer might be that being universally feared and despised is its own "RP advantage" After all, anything that enhances your character concept for RP purposes is an RP advantage and if your concept is "I am unversally feared and despised" then it's win-win.

Mechanically in Dark Sun the "advantage" would be to be able to take classes with the "Defiler Arcane" poiwer source since presumably classes with the "Arcane" power source are not available or would be sharply limited at best.

 

[Saeviomagy]

First up - I don't think that making new classes left right and centre is a useful thing. It's far easier to look at what an individual in a setting can do and then pick a class that fits that, while changing descriptions. We don't need a gladiator class because there's no mechanical way in which they're different from picking one of the martial classes that already exist. The only real mechanical change might be allowing a rogue to pick skills instead of being forced to take thievery and stealth.

As for defilers? A defiler is, as others have said, gaining mechanical benefits in exchange for roleplaying penalties that usually hit his buddies. There's no real reason why the average PC group would accept having one around, and there's no real way that they could reliably keep their status secret.

In 4e, the monsters don't have to follow the same rules as PCs.

To me that means one thing.

Defilers are monsters.

Conveniently enough, that means that they use the recharge system for their powers instead of per encounter etc, which would also make them more powerful than a preserver with the same powers over time.

If you want to run a game where defilers are normal PCs, then you're running an evil campaign. At which point you make defiling the default, and it's easy to make opposing preservers pushovers.

The only time this will cause a real problem is if, for some reason, you need to have a preserver preserving and a defiler defiling in the same party.

And in that case your campaign is wierd enough that you can sort it out yourself.

 

[Nork]

I think they needed to kill a few SKs for the setting to work. Or at least Kalak.

The 'problem' with the setting was that the SKs and the Templar system was just too oppressive and omni-present. The idea that a band of players could be running around doing their own thing while being powerful simply didn't work. What templar would take one look at them without instantly deciding they were slaves and his property as of right then and there?

It didn't even make any rational sense for the players to be able to successfully resist the templar either. Your a level 20 psionicst, 20 defiler, x dragon, and you rule your city-state as a living god. Somebody just defied your priest, in public no less. What do you do? You make sure they get a beat-down that is measured in biblical units right then and there, and you do it where everyone can see. There is no power but yours, end of story.


Now, when a bunch of slaves and nobles got togeather and waxed Kalak and Tyr became Free Tyr, things changed. It made a LOT more sense for the other SKs to still be the undisputed masters of their realm, but for the SKs and their templars to also be watching their P's and Q's. They can't go around just pushing folks about simply because 'I'm a god, my rule is absolute, deal with it'. They've got to justify it. "We had to use our uber-powers to trash these folks because they broke my law, and my law exists to protect the stability and power of the city. Without my efforts things could devolve into chaos and you'd die in a wasteland." No need to think about revolt here folks.

The SKs and their agents no longer have to maintain pretenses either. They ain't fooling anyone with a story about how they are an unkillable god anymore, so no need to beat down anyone strong enough to do their own thing, and thereby plant the seed of the concept of the possibility of resistnace, anymore. Why expend the effort if they are not doing anything bothersome at the moment?

I think if they had just left the rest of the SKs alive, the setting would have been much better. Especially since players were most likely Tyrian citizens, and unrestricted hassling of Tyrian citizens abroad who are keeping their noses reasonably clean would be a super effective way to get the Tyrian council irked enough to make changes in how much iron they were willing to export and to whom. But on the flip side, the players can't go thumbing their nose at templars, because 'no unrestricted hassling', is not the same thing as 'no hassling'.

Especially since there were also places like Raam which were out of control, and despite having a SK and Templars, their control system was completely broken.

So yea. Killing Kalak = good for setting. Killing half the SKs = as bad for setting as finding Elminster at the top of the Pristine Tower.

 

[pawsplay]

Okay, having some time to reflect on Dark Sun and knowing more about 4e.

The setting: Reboot to the original setting, and put out a mini-campaign that results in Kalak's death. Assume in all future publications that the city becomes free, without relying on any specific group of characters being responsible for it.

Characters: Paladins get retooled powers tying them to the elemental clerics; special mounts are out, elemental boons (like finding water or something) are in. Becoming an avengion or dragon obviously becomes an epic destiny.

Systems: Weapon materials become important. Any time there is a material disparity, there should be a chance of breakage. Some feats or powers might relate to this.

Defiling/preserving becomes an alignment type thing. Preserving is the default for PCs, but they can be defilers if they wish. Whether or not one or the has objective advantages, it's mostly a matter of flavor. But some feats and maybe a power or two exist that emphasize one or the other, and of course it ties to your ultimate destiny. Perhaps an emphasis on defiling or preserving could even be a paragon path. I would definely write up easy, generally non-consequential rules for the amount of plant life in the area. Defiling worsens the local conditions, while preserving is limited in how how much and how often it can be done.

 

[Nork]

In regards to the whole defiling vs preserving thing...

I think the 'best' answer is to simply say: "No. Roll a psionicst." I really don't think players should be able to be a wizard of either flavor. At least not to start.

Restricting arcane magic to being something you gain access to at later levels, sort of like how you have to wait to take a Prc, would be better. Because in the setting, arcane magic was very much presented as both rare, and as something that already powerful people turned to, to become even more powerful. It does not really fit the setting for some mook to one day decide to become a defiler/preserver and start as a level 1 arcane caster with no other claim to fame.

 

[Spatula]

The PCs are not mooks. Especially not in 4e's view of things.

 

[Nork]

The PCs are not mooks. Especially not in 4e's view of things.

They were mooks before they picked up their first level(s) in their first class.

Starting as an arcane caster in Dark Sun made about as much sense as building a nuke in your garage. Everyone will turn you in if they catch the smallest hint of what your up to, and you need to use a bunch of highly restricted materials and hard to get knowledge to do it.

Psionics filled the roll of magic in Dark Sun.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Psionics filled the roll of magic in Dark Sun.

Wrong.

I think the role of a defiler/preserver class can and should be accessed from 1st level. There should be no specific advantages or penalties for either one in the mechanics -- you choose one as your power source, and get some fluff description of what happens when you cast a spell (plants wither or you look old or whatever). This means that DMs are free to have apocaypltic defiling for their villans and that PC's are free to use at-will spells without dying.

The idea that arcane magic requires the sacrifice of life is strong in DS, and it's something that should affect the characters from the beginning of their adventuring careers. But it's a flavor thing, not a mechanics thing.

Psionics don't replace that magic. They accomplish different goals (especially in 4e).