D&D 4E How would you re-envision Darksun with 4e?

[Spatula]

They were mooks before they picked up their first level(s) in their first class.

They were never mooks. As 4e PCs they are Heroes with Great Destinies, a cut above the average person.

Starting as an arcane caster in Dark Sun made about as much sense as building a nuke in your garage.

So what level Engineer do I have to be in order to be able to build a nuke in my garage?

You need training in order to use arcane magic. You get that training in secret before the game starts. No different than any other character, aside from perhaps the secret part.

Psionics filled the roll of magic in Dark Sun.

Magic filled the role of magic in Dark Sun. That's why there were two wizard classes in the books, Preservers and Defilers, both of which could cast spells at 1st level.

Psionics don't replace that magic. They accomplish different goals (especially in 4e).

Well, hopefully in 4e, and definitely in 2e. My biggest disappointment with 3e psionics was how they were best at the sorcerer's schtick (and better than the sorcerer at it, too), which doesn't work very well in Dark Sun, IMO. (my biggest disappointment with 2e psionics would be how brokenly the system interacted with the existing game...)

 

[Serensius]

Definitely box set material. I think 4E should approach settings as "prestige" products, and include all kinds of cool goodness in addition to the standard rules & gazeteer: starter adventure module, cloth map of the "world", city maps of the main cities, handful of iconic miniatures, code for a download of appropriate background music, custom terrain tiles (oasis, market, arena, temple, salt flat, tents, caravan), short fiction (perhaps an excerpt or prologue to a companion novel), art book.

Since Athas is brutal and prone to the whims of dictators, I think it'd be fun to create a mechanism for the playerbase to radically alter the canonical gameworld. Perhaps set it up so everyone who buys the setting (and registers the unique product code online) can vote to influence the progress of the world. Want to eliminate Tieflings from the world? If enough people get together, you can make it happen. Annual updates would establish these big changes in the setting's canon. For the given example, the in-game explanation could be that a massive uprising takes place and there is a genocidal purge that is brutally effective. From then on, "Tiefling" is no longer an official player race for the setting.

Gladiators are a part of Athas, so I'd create some kind of mechanism for online arena combat. Perhaps using the virtual tabletop, I'd allow registered players to use point-buy and fixed wealth limits to create characters and pit them against each other in 4E combat. This would be like a play-by-mail system, with one turn per day. It's fun, fits the setting, and incorporates some of WotC's online initiatives. I'd make this arena exclusive to Dark Sun (at least at first); as the only mechanism for "official" 1 on 1 D&D character duels it'd attract the character optimization/powergamer crowd and drive sales of the boxed set.

I'd also add rules for various forms of unarmed martial arts. I know Noonan wanted to bar monks from the world, but look: if the setting itself makes weapons scarce, the populace would come up with ways to use their own bodies as weapons. Look at the real history of the development of unarmed martial arts. With metal rare and arena bloodsport common, it just makes sense for unarmed martial arts to develop.

That said, I'd make the rules for unarmed martial arts more "realistic" and less mystical (except when augmented by psionics via certain feats or class options): no d20 damage die for a punch. Bottom line is that mundane unarmed martial arts should generally be a better option than fighting untrained, and generally a worse option than swinging a steel sword. But given that weapons tend to break on Athas, unarmed martial arts stay relevant.

Made. Of. Win.

 

[Silverblade The Ench]

Kamikaze,
I disagree. Defiling is specifically described in the setting as being more powerful. In 2nd ed, without all the spell affecting feats of 3rd ed, they let defilers gain levels faster than normal.

There IS a mechanical disadvatage: defiling itself.

In 3rd ed I'd give them the effect of metamagic feats as bonuses.

I agree with Kathan's idea and my system would be this:

When a spell is cast as a defiling spell, the user can choose a free metamagic feat to affect the spell (limited by his level, a table with level and available powers is needed).

When the spell goes off, a defiling effect burst goes off, affecting ALL creatures, except the defiler (and familiar) in 5' radius per spell level. (a feat could allow specififc allies to be unhurt...but the defiling does require life energy or the spell fizzles)

Damage is 1hp per spell level AND caster level. Will save is allowed for no damage, DC is 10+ Int bonus + spell level.

A spell cannot be cast as a "defiler" spell without the presence of significant amount of living organisms. Thus it cannot be used in most deserts, unless there are living victims nearby to sustain it... So most defilers would keep slaves as "fuel"...muhaha

There are several disdavantages to using defiling magic:

1) Depletes life, thus, only trees and animals could survive more than one casting in same area, and even they will die with several castings. Eventually reduces areas to lifeless deserts, RP, but important.

2) Dust, since things crumble to lifeless dust, the defiler is swathed in dust (mechanics of that's debatable).

3) Most creatures kill defilers on sight, for several reasons, Again RP, but it should make life brutally nasty for PC defilers, as no one will care for them. Only the most corrupt folk will have anything to do with them.


Folk need to stop thinking in metagame ways...Dark Sun is not a "game balanced world". Defiling is more powerful than normal magic. Tough! The defilers (Sorceror Kings) wiped the preservers out, almost. Hard proof, in the game setting, that defiling is indeed, more powerful.
That is not a bad thing! It's good, it's different.

PCs who are defilers should be harrased to heck, it goes beyond "tree hugging eco hippies" as some may see it In a lot of primitive cultures, nothing, absolutely nothing, not even the death of family, is as catastrophic as destruction of your wells and fertile land. You can have more kids, but without food and water...they have no chance, ergo, folk who poisoned wells etc suffered the most horrible punishments available.

So defilers are literlaly, Public Enemy #1.

And a mob of enraged towns folk has great grapple abilities and thus, defilers get slaughtered

 

[evildmguy]

I had a thought and want to share to see what others think.

Someone on a board suggested using taint rules and mutations for defiling. What if that was the mechanical disadvantage? (The advantage is metamagic feats for free, maybe higher damage die, whatever is decided.) Then, a defiler has to be careful because too much might make it tough for them to exist. And it doesn't have to be physical. Mental things, such as schizephrania, mania, phobias can be a huge hindrance as well. Paranoia is another good one. However, components must be used. (I wouldn't track specific things, just that they have x gold of components and mark that off when cast.) This forces defilers to deal with others for things, unless they want to try and get it all themselves.

The reason I had this thought is because SKs are then immune to the taint due to what they are. So, the average caught and killed defiler looks and acts wrong. However, the SKs don't. That's what makes it so tough for there to be resistance to them, because they don't look like other defilers!

There is also what was done in the Dragon magazine about spell casting but I don't know about that. It would be tough for a PC to be a long term defilier because after so much taint, they have to be NPCs. It would be more interesting if ANY spell caster could chose taint at any point for a more powerful spell at the cost of defiling but can go back to non defiling so it's not obvious who is a defiler.

Just some coppers.

edg

 

[I'm A Banana]

I disagree. Defiling is specifically described in the setting as being more powerful. In 2nd ed, without all the spell affecting feats of 3rd ed, they let defilers gain levels faster than normal.

"More Powerful" can mean many, many different things. Part of the reason defilers might be "more powerful" is because they friggin' kill stuff. But this is a flavor murder, not a mechanical murder. If you cast Fireball and somewhere in the world a lake dries up, that's powerful. With that spell, you've killed hundreds of creatures and ruined a handful of towns, each with a couple dozen inhabitants. Everyone who knows you did it will say "You are very powerful, you've dried up a lake! You've killed so many!"

Versus preservers, who don't have any real outward effect, and, in fact, drain their own life, thus making them "weaker." But again, this is fluff. You look sallow and tired, your limbs are a little weak, the grip on your sword is a bit thin, but mechanically, there doesn't have to be a difference.

There are two spellcasters. One kills you by killing a baby. The other kills you by stabbing himself in the shin. The first is obviously "more powerful," even if the spell they cast has the same effect.

Folk need to stop thinking in metagame ways...Dark Sun is not a "game balanced world". Defiling is more powerful than normal magic. Tough! The defilers (Sorceror Kings) wiped the preservers out, almost. Hard proof, in the game setting, that defiling is indeed, more powerful.
That is not a bad thing! It's good, it's different.

Y'know, it would really be unfortunate if WotC decided that Dark Sun just didn't support those players and DMs who like game balance.

I'm assuming that's "most of them."

There's no reason that Dark Sun cannot -- and no reason that it should not -- be a balanced game.

Asking 4e to abandon that is asking FAR too much, I think.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Y'know, it would really be unfortunate if WotC decided that Dark Sun just didn't support those players and DMs who like game balance.

I'm assuming that's "most of them."

I think that's a bit of a crazy assumption.

I think "balance" for most D&D players and GMs is somewhere quite far down the list of priorities. Sure we like it, but things like fun and atmosphere come first. I'd sacrifice a bit of balance to have Dark Sun that actually y'know, FELT like Dark Sun, not like "D&D in a desert with slightly more psionics".

 

[pawsplay]

In regards to the whole defiling vs preserving thing...

I think the 'best' answer is to simply say: "No. Roll a psionicst." I really don't think players should be able to be a wizard of either flavor. At least not to start.

Of course, that flies in the face of absolutely every version of the setting ever published. Furthermore, it discounts the definition of a 1st level PC or adventuring NPC used in every edition of D&D. But if you want to make your own version of Dark Sun, and you want to houserule a 1st level heroic character as being something different, then it might be worth thinking about if it adds something. That is probably not relevant to this thread, however.

 

[Silverblade The Ench]

I think that's a bit of a crazy assumption.

I think "balance" for most D&D players and GMs is somewhere quite far down the list of priorities. Sure we like it, but things like fun and atmosphere come first. I'd sacrifice a bit of balance to have Dark Sun that actually y'know, FELT like Dark Sun, not like "D&D in a desert with slightly more psionics".

Exactly Dark Sun is not normal D&D , and that's why it's damn good. Go read the DS material again, defilers are more powerful, not "fluff" powerful, but *erase your butt easier*, powerful.

Don't fear it, embrace it! Stuff metagaming, play Dark Sun instead

Defilers should scare the crap out of characters, and also make "heroic" folk want ot kill 'em (and others just for fear and revenge). This is a Good Thing (tm)

 

[arscott]

I touched on this a lot in the other thread, but there is a way to maintain the flavor of the preservers and defilers without sacrificing game balance.

The short version:
Preserver = Wizard
Defiler = Sorcerer.

Defilers aren't powerful because there's something more potent about defiling magic. They're powerful because they take shortcuts--they never bothered to learn the proper way to cast spells.

This is clearly reflected in the original boxed set--Level for level, defilers and preservers are exactly the same--defilers just gain their levels at a faster rate.

But think about what actually happens when you take the short and easy route--you sacrifice flexibility and understanding for expediency.

So the defiler might learn to cast straightforward spells like fireball or disintegrate, but he never gained the deeper understanding of magic necessary to cast spells like dispel magic or contingency.

The 3e sorcerer was a good example of this--he could only cast a few spells, but he could cast them more reliably and more often than the wizard.

The 4e sorcerer is described as being barely in control of his magic, leaking magical residue into the environment around him (The given example is that after he casts an ice spell, he radiates an aura of cold for a short time). That fits my conception of a defiler fairly well.

And, as an added bonus, the concept works perfectly well with the term Sorcerer King.

 

[Staffan]

Except Batman: Begins is a comic book movie. Both movie adaptations and comic books are known for relaunching and resetting timelines, etc. I have never known an RPG to do this.

Some who have:

World of Darkness did a total reboot, mostly just keeping the mood and some names from the old version.

The Traveller setting has numerous versions. Notably, the setting in Traveller 4th ed is a precursor to the settings of Megatraveller and Traveller the New Era (2nd and 3rd ed), and GURPS Traveller is an alternate version of the Megatraveller setting (where the thing that set off a civil war in the Imperium didn't happen).

After FASA closed their doors, they licensed Earthdawn out to two different companies. Living Room Games released Earthdawn 2nd ed, which changed some things around and moved the timeline a few years, while Red Brick Games released what was more like Earthdawn 1.5, just cleaning some of the Earthdawn 1 stuff up and keeping to the old timeline.

One thing; was Borys as a Dragon ever statted out? And could he grant spells like the other Sorceror-Kings?

He was given monster stats in the boxed set, although it "only" made him a defiler 20/psionicist 20 (plus breath weapon, plus using both spells, psionics, and physical attacks in any one round, plus being a big honking dragon) instead of 30.

I'd probably also remove druids from the original book, and save them for a supplement. Dark Sun druids never made a whole lot of sense as adventurers. They are religiously dedicated to a specific piece of land. The character just doesn't fit in the standard playstyle that includes alot of travelling. I do like the class alot, but it's non-standard enough that I think it should be optional rather than core.

Note that Dark Sun druids had something called the Time of Wandering, where they spend half their time on their move until level 12 or something like that. It seems the designers were aware that tying the druids too strongly to a specific place would interfere with adventuring, and took steps to mitigate that.

Its interesting to note that the -1 to -10 hp/dying mechanice in 3E is inspired form a DarkSun optional rule.

Actually, it was an optional rule in the 2e DMG that was official, or at least strongly recommended, for Dark Sun.