D&D 4E How would you re-envision Greyhawk with 4e?

[IanB]

I would be very concerned about how one would introduce the 4th ed world changes into Greyhawk, especially changes to races and classes.

Suddenly there are this new race, the Dragonborn, wandering everywhere? I can't imagine you could introduce that without an event. I'm not a fan of "ret-conning" to say they were always there. As well, with the removal of gnomes as PC races that would have an impact IMO.

I think you do need some story-advance to try to explain the sudden changes. It's hard to imagine that it would be acceptable (albeit desirable) to just remove a core PC race from the setting.

Duncan

Well, remember, in a setting book you can introduce whatever variants are appropriate in that first 'how to make a PC in this setting' chapter; for me, the ideal GH intro would say "no dragonborn here" and include stats for playing a gnome. There's no reason any existing setting has to accept every single thing from the core books; Eberron did when it was created, but it was explicitly created to have everything that was in the core. 2E Dark Sun would be the counter example, where the setting materials spelled out all the stuff that was different right off the bat.

 

[Greg K]

I've got to query this. I hate Spiked Chains myself (they are too powerful and versitile, that seem to be the "best at everything super-weapon"), but how do they damage GH, but are acceptable elsewhere?

If you want spiked chains removed from the rules, that's fine, but what is it about spiked chains that is inappropriate in GH that is ok in other worlds?

Duncan

First, I didn't lay the blame soley on spiked chains. However to answer your question regarding spiked chains, I don't consider spiked chains acceptable in Greyhawk, the Realms, Dragonlance or several other previously published WOTC settings. However, in a homebrew or place like Ebberon I could care less despite not liking spiked chains period. Ebberon, in addition to my lack of interest, has no prior published history prior to 3.x. As for a DM that creates a homebrew setting with spiked chains that is their camp vision (if I don't like the choices, I won't play). I also would not have care if spiked chains appeared in some supplement and the DM chose to allow in his or her specific Greyhawk based house game (again, if I don't like choices I don't play in that game).

My issue is with several elements included in 3.x Greyhawk by it being the default setting. The Greyhawk I knew prior to 3.x does not include spiked chains, tanglefoot bags, sunrods, halfling riding dogs. It is also not a setting where Kord and some of the other Suel pantheon are among the default gods (except possibly around the Lendore Isles). The default deities include Istus, Tritheron and several other deities introduced by EGG in his Greyhawk articles, but not to be found in 3.x until Complete Divine.

 

[A'koss]

Earlier today a somewhat strange revelation occured to me. Perhaps not so much a revelation as something I've never really stopped to think about. You ever wonder why the "ancient histories" of most of the published settings were considerably more interesting than what was going on in the "current" era?

Anyway, I wanted to touch on villains again briefly as the more I thought about it, the more I realized that Greyhawk has, bar none, the most impressive array of uber-villains of any of WotC's settings. Iggwilv, Graz'zt, Acerak, Iuz, Lord Robilar (sorta), Eclavdra, Lolth (remember, FR basically stole her), Fraz'Urb'Luu, Vecna, Kas, Tuerny the Merciless, St. Kargoth, Kyuss, Tharizdun, the Queen of Chaos & Miska the Wolf-Spider. Even if you've never played Greyhawk, these names (at least most of them) are well-known to the D&D community. FR villains on the other hand are a pretty sad and unambitious lot, comparitively speaking.

On the other hand, aside from the Circle of Eight, I think most people who weren't Greyhawkers would be hard pressed to name more than... one hero from the setting. I doubt they could name even one "good" organization in Greyhawk (as a matter of fact, I can't think of one off the top of my head!) I thought that was interesting. PCs have never really had trouble with (at least the perception of) being overshadowed by uber-powerful good NPCs. FR on the other hand, even if you haven't played the setting you'll likely recognize the names of their heroes.

Another thing I thought was funny in published adventures was that it seemed that there was Greyhawk City, the Gem of the Flanaess (and surrounds)... then everywhere else. As far as adventures go, it's either in Greyhawk City, or someplace near Homlett... or damn near every time you gotta trek out to the fringes of the map.

Anyway, as I said in my first post, first and foremost I think it's important to leverage the strength and range in the setting's villains. That's what's going to get people's attention and distinguish it from FR. And there needs to be more than just Greyhawk City as the only vibrant, interesting city in the setting. Greyhawk really needs some shakeup in the kingdoms' department as well, though there a quite a few interesting ones that just need to be spiced up a bit. Moving the timeline forward to match up with FR can allow for that revitilization. Most importantly, the current era should not be a pale shadow to it's more colorful history.

 

[The Ubbergeek]

Lolth (remember, FR basically improved her)

Fix'd

 

[Ranger REG]

Only that Star Trek did use some convoluted mutating genetic virus story line to explain the the Klingon retcon anyways...

Yeah, well. They didn't followed Roddenberry.

Same thing happened with 3e-to-4e transition.

 

[JoeGKushner]

I would be very concerned about how one would introduce the 4th ed world changes into Greyhawk, especially changes to races and classes.

Suddenly there are this new race, the Dragonborn, wandering everywhere? I can't imagine you could introduce that without an event. I'm not a fan of "ret-conning" to say they were always there. As well, with the removal of gnomes as PC races that would have an impact IMO.

I think you do need some story-advance to try to explain the sudden changes. It's hard to imagine that it would be acceptable (albeit desirable) to just remove a core PC race from the setting.

Duncan

Somewhere in the Sea of Dust, cities began to reappear. These cities did not carry the taint of the ash but rather, were all of an age ago. In the center of that city stood the Radiant Statue, a huge memorial of Bahamut the Paltinum Dragon as it was he who sweept away several cities and made those people into the Dragonborn.

They knew that their return to Greyhawk meant that other powers had also returned to this realm. Other powers that had made dark and demonic pacts to retain their lives...

 

[The Ubbergeek]

I like that premise.

 

[Mirtek]

I have no idea how you so unmake 4e to fit GH and still have it 4e,

Easy: Complelty ignore all the 4e fluff.

4e Greyhawk fighters perform martial stunts, 4e Greyhawk wizards fire at-will magic missles and 4e Greyhawk clerics were chain instead of plate. And all have their powers divided in at will, per encounter, and per day abilities.

However: Shadowfell, Feywild, and all the other crap is simply dead and forgotten (or more precisely never born) as far as 4e Greyhawk is concerned.

If these changes cause 4e to no longer be 4e, then we can also say that 4e is no longer D&D because the changes are no more extreme than the 4e changes to pre-4e D&D.

 

[Set]

Most of the 'changes' could be folded in relatively painlessly, with a combination of 'always there, just not as overtly present' or 'forgotten lore resurfacing' or 'recent arrivals / creations.'

Dragonborn could be related to the 'Greyhawk Dragons' who are said to live in cities and occasionally take humans as mates. How are they related? Well, the 'Greyhawk' Dragons aren't telling, are they? They *seem* to have suddenly arisen in numbers, but some records indicate that they are an older people, who have always been creeping around in the background. Why are they suddenly cropping up in metropolitan areas all over the Flannaes? They aren't telling, indeed, they don't seem to know, only that they have a connection to each other and regard each other as family. And is there any sinister connection between their appearance and the mysterious disappearances that sometimes accompanied their sudden arrival? (plot hook! What if certain humans on the brink of death for whatever reason have been offered a new lease on life, as inheritors of a tiny fragment of the Greyhawk Dragons ancient heritage, through some arcane ritual known only to dragonkind?) Alternately, the Scarlet Brotherhood have spent decades, if not centuries, engaged in horrifying breeding experiments upon their slave castes, crossing men with orcs, hobgoblins and even apes! Imagine their twisted slave-breeders getting their hands on some sort of dragon-blooded creature, and creating a slave caste of 'Dragonborn,' who, oops, end up a bit tougher than expected and stage a massive escape! Hundreds, perhaps *thousands* of these new Dragonborn escape their cruel masters and flood into the neighboring countries, and yet many hundreds remain slaves! Built-in conflict potential as these new Dragonborn are people without a land of their own, many burning with a need to rescue the rest of their enslaved people, trying desperately to convince the neighboring countries that have taken them in to help them mount a full-out assault on the Scarlet Brotherhood! (plot hook! Intrigue aplenty as Dragonborn refugees begin to quickly wear out their welcome in lands that begrudgingly took them in, as they agitate and rabble-rouse, trying to work up the populace to aid them in a costly war against the Brotherhood!)

Others could be newer. Iuz was the original 'cambion' that has turned into the half-fiend or tiefling in later settings. His domains would be the logical spawning point for a new race of tieflings, descended from the rampages of his demon-led armies. Due to his own heritage (and the need to send the full demons back from time to time, since Iuz doesn't like letting them 'out' for a long time), Iuz might specifically appoint these fellow 'cambions' as the commanders of his various troops, as he thinks that the those like himself, a combination of mortal and demon, are inherently superior to their parent species. Alternately, Iuz might persecute other mortals with demonic blood, not wanting to deal with possible competitors, in which case there is even more reason for Tieflings to be spreading across the world, to get away from Iuz's paranoid purges of their kind, even as his demon commanders continue to sire more of them. Additionally, Tieflings could also be coming out of the former Great Kingdom as well, with the source of their origins being less clear... (plot hook! What is the sinister source of the Aedrie Tieflings, could they be descended from the nobles said to cavort with fiends in the dark rituals practiced in the fallen courts of the 'Great' Kingdom?)

Warlords might be a long-forgotten warrior caste of old Aerdie, whose time came again during the Greyhawk Wars, and now the art has spread across the continent, as forces arrayed against the depredations of the Scarlet Brotherhood, giant nation or Iuz's armies, find themselves increasingly in need of a more specialized form of battlefield commander.

 

[GVDammerung]

Easy: Complelty ignore all the 4e fluff.

A good bit of 4e fluff is embodied in the actual 4e RAW, as far as I can tell - e.g., wizards implements etc. I do not think it so "easy" to flush the 4e fluff.

Most of the 'changes' could be folded in relatively painlessly, with a combination of 'always there, just not as overtly present' or 'forgotten lore resurfacing' or 'recent arrivals / creations.'

This kind of "thinking" makes me want to wretch. It ain't GH if you have to bend, fold and mutilate to make it "Greyhawk." Rather, it becomes GH mostly in name only.