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D&D 4E How would you re-envision Greyhawk with 4e?

ruleslawyer

Registered User
GVDammerung said:
A good bit of 4e fluff is embodied in the actual 4e RAW, as far as I can tell - e.g., wizards implements etc. I do not think it so "easy" to flush the 4e fluff.
Really? I seem to recall that picture of Boccob in Dragon 71 having a crystal ball, a staff, and a wand within easy reach. You're suggesting that descendants of demons, makers of demonic pacts, and wizards with wands, staffs, and crystal balls are out of place in Greyhawk?
 

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JoeGKushner said:
Somewhere in the Sea of Dust, cities began to reappear. These cities did not carry the taint of the ash but rather, were all of an age ago. In the center of that city stood the Radiant Statue, a huge memorial of Bahamut the Paltinum Dragon as it was he who sweept away several cities and made those people into the Dragonborn.

They knew that their return to Greyhawk meant that other powers had also returned to this realm. Other powers that had made dark and demonic pacts to retain their lives...

And that would be the kind of event that I suggested I couldn't imagine without.

Duncan
 

JoeGKushner

First Post
Duncan Haldane said:
And that would be the kind of event that I suggested I couldn't imagine without.

Duncan


True but it's still a handwave. It's not like this is something we DON'T have to think about whenever a monster race gets the PC treatment like the Dragonborn did originally in Races of the Dragon or Tieflings in Planescape when first introduced.

Heck, how many people explore the Sea of Dust outside adventuers anyway?

Journal of Tormis the Explorer:
Sea of Dust Expedition

Day 58: We have discovered many tell tale signs of an ancient empire. One of the scouts copntinues to inform me that many of these ruins aren't ancient but rather are still well maintained. What nonsense. If someone was living in the Sea of Dust, we'd known.

Wouldn't we?
 

The Little Raven

First Post
JoeGKushner said:
True but it's still a handwave.

Using the most common definition of this term:

The term handwaving is an informal term that describes either the debate technique of failing to rigorously address an argument in an attempt to bypass the argument altogether, or a deliberate gesture and admission that one is intentionally glossing over detail for the sake of time or clarity. It can be meant as an accusation or in a more positive light, depending on the context.

One wonders how exactly an explanation like that, if backed by written story that supports and explains it, is a handwave?

Sorcerers existing in FR in 3e? Handwave, since you just say "it's always been like that" and move on.
Sudden appearance of shades in FR in 3e? Story element, since they actually explain why they're here now and where they came from.
 

JoeGKushner

First Post
Mourn said:
Using the most common definition of this term:



One wonders how exactly an explanation like that, if backed by written story that supports and explains it, is a handwave?

Sorcerers existing in FR in 3e? Handwave, since you just say "it's always been like that" and move on.
Sudden appearance of shades in FR in 3e? Story element, since they actually explain why they're here now and where they came from.


But that's kinda my point.

You could do either.

I mean, I've played and GMed Greyhawk for years and do you know how many times my players have been to a halfling or gnome kingdom?

Yeah, not too often. Many background changes, including those I personally don't like, are often only as difficult as the group makes them.
 

Najo

First Post
I think roleplaying settings are meant to be a bit fluid. It is impossible to lock down a setting in stone and say x class, y monster or z magic item was never ever there. These worlds are huge, the rules tie to them change and improve, the writers add and take away, the novels come out with new ideas and people want to play in them. Every Greyhawk campaign is different from the next one as no two DMs run theirs the same. So, when things need to be added in or taken away for the greater good of the game, why is that such a big deal overall?
 

A'koss

Explorer
Part 2...

Continuing on with ideas to revitialize the setting...


#2 - Artifacts & Relics.

Greyhawk's second most marketable feature (IMO) are it's widely recognized Artifacts & Relics.

The Sword of Kas, The Hand & Eye of Vecna, The Rod of Seven Parts, The Mighty Servant of Luek-O, The Machine of Lum the Mad, The Invulnerable Coat of Arnd, The Demonomicon of Iggwilv, The Codex of Infinite Planes, The Bringer of Doom, The Axe of the Dwarvish Lords, The Orbs of Dragonkind, The Iron Flask of Tuerny the Merciless, Daoud's Wondrous Lanthorn, Fragarach and the Swords of Answering, The Crook of Rao etc...

Many have been and could be again the focal point for a sprawling high level adventure.



The Main Event.

Greyhawk has always been under the shadow of Tharizdun's return and to bring Greyhawk into 4e (and lean more towards a "Points of Light" setting), a little taste of Tharizdun should be enough. :cool: His potential "full" return would be best left to a 4e adventure in the future.

The Elemental War: In trying to think of the most interesting (from a new player's perspective) landscape-altering event that really plays into both Greyhawk's history and some of the 4th edition changes - Elemental Evil feels like a good place to start.

It should occur very close to the current 3e timeline, but a century before the 4e timeline begins. The Princes of Elemental Evil, along with powerful Tharizdun cultists, utilize the Codex of Infinite Planes to tap into some of Tharizdun’s power (and unbeknownst to them, some of his influence leaks out from his prison). It culminates into a veritable elemental siege of Oerth that alters the very landscape.

Major forces of Good and Evil (both mortal & god) put aside their differences to drive off the army of evil elementals and their creations. Many powerful personages die during the war, but eventually they prevail, the Codex vanishing in the confusion.


Altering the Landscape:

Greyhawk has always had some great locales, but few on a grand scale. If I were to try to revitalize the setting, I'd want to be able to take one look at the Greyhawk Map and go - cool.

Right now we have the Land of Black Ice, the Rift Canyon and the Sea of Dust. All great regions with loads of potential, but there is not much else that stands out. So one thing I would do is spice up the landscape a little, and an Elemental War would certainly be a good catalyst. Apart from the various smaller changes that occur when elementals lay seige to a world (cities falling, forests burning, etc. there are a number of more significant changes. Here’s a few ideas I’ve been tossing around…

The Iron Desert (Ilbasan): The Elementals secure a rogue Acheron Cube, lost in the Elemental Chaos and transport it Greyhawk space to use as a staging ground. At the culmination of the war a band of heroes succeed in destroying the cube, which then falls to Oerth, striking primarily in the Great Kindom of Northern Aerdy, near the border with the Bone March, creating an immense crater with titanic fragments of solid metal scattered in the region, including one mountain-sized one (later named Khatun). A spiderweb network of rift-canyons spiral out across the landscape and the entire region is turned into an iron-sand desert. Ironstorms, strangely mutated creatures and small clans of riftrunners ply their way through the region. If you can get to a fragment, there are precious metals to be gleaned there. Khatun is the goldmine though, and several powerful clans of dwarves have banded together are slowly carving a home in it. However, unknown to all (even the Elementals who used it) the Acheron Cube was prison and deep in the heart of Khatun it waits for the greedy dwarves to reach it.

The Sundered Moon: Towards the end of the war the “Final Solution” of the Elemental Princes is to send a titanic comet of living elemental ice to destroy the world. The Gods themselves must act, combining their power to move the moon Celene into its path (pruning some of their number in the sacrifice of power?). The gambit is successful as the moon is struck by the comet, reducing it to a crumbling, tumbling ruin of stone and ice orbiting the planet. However, the fragments are not stable - as the remnants of the moon passes overhead every 91 days, meteor storms follow in its wake. Most of time they are relatively harmless, other times a more significant piece falls creating havoc.

Fire & Ice: A large piece of elemental ice from the original comet that struck the moon, tumbles to Oerth, impacting in southern Keoland. As a result the Hellfurnaces explode in a fury of activity which continues to this day, turning the skies in the region perpetually black with ash. Major lava flows are common, including a new large molten lake in the Yomanry, and a new nation emerges ruled by Fire Giants. As for the Icefall, it initially melts considerably, creating a great lake of it's own with broken ice mountains and islands scattered in the middle. The magic of the elemental ice eventually stabilizes and turns the region into an arctic zone in the heartlands of the Flanaess. A dim intelligence still remains in the elemental ice, slowly regathering it's strength…

Eye of the World: Deep in the jungles of Hepmonaland, an ancient Suloise site is discovered where they could practice their most dangerous magics far from civilized lands. Tharizdun cultists try to use the xxxx to discover his prison plane but unwittingly find the Far Realm. Unreality bleeds into the Prime plane and begins warping the landscape. A great eye, the size of large hill grows at the centre of the region and the cthuhlian fun begins. Villages and wildlife are slowly warped into squamous horrors that now roam the yellow-steaming alien jungle. Perhaps some inspired a la “The Mist”. The Scarlet Brotherhood begin to investigate. The Eye however is only the first appendage to grow…



Next up - new "attention gettting" monsters...
 

A'koss

Explorer
Monsters:

The Tarrasque has always been one of D&D’s most beloved uber-monsters. It is hinted that it's creation is linked to the Elemental Princes of Evil, which I always thought was interesting, and that opens the door for more of their... unique creations. :)

The Great Beasts: During the war, the Elemental Princes unleashed a number of monstrosities on Oerth the likes of which the world had never seen. Titanic, nearly unstoppable monstrosities that even the mightiest of dragons would soon learn to fear. With their aid, cities were crushed and armies scattered, but without their masters they are now directionless forces of nature who have retreated to uncivilized lands across Oerik. Each of the Great Beasts attracts a number of “like-minded” monsters who follow the Beast wherever it roams and will fight to defend it.

The Great Beasts are each "Tarrasque-class" monsters that require almost a siege mentality to defeat (or more likely, just drive off). Here's an example:

The Taunen – A titanic quadraped that appears as a monstrously proportioned beast vaguely similar to a landshark with a craggy, stony hide. It roams the Crystalmist Mountains with a retinue of landsharks (and possibly others?). In addition to being able to burrow into solid rock, it can hurl boulders the size of small houses, create earthquakes by jumping and earth “tidalwaves” by charging, then diving into the ground.

Oerth could handle 5 or 6 of these unique beasts wandering the Flanaess, and could be used at all levels in different capacities (at low levels as an epic backdrop, mid levels to steer some of their "followers" away nearby civilized lands and at high levels to drive off/redirect but requiring an epic level adventure to actually kill).


The Giants: Giants are also very much a part of the Greyhawk culture and deserve greater prominence in the setting. In addition to the growing Fire Giant threat from the Hellfurnaces, “The Grand Duchy of Geoff” is officially no more (if for no other reason than to strike the name from the GH map :p ), as it’s now firmly in the control several powerful clans of giants who have formed a loose coalition along with their humanoid minions.

Sterich has been bracing for the inevitable seige of Istivin, though it is only due to the brave guerilla war they've been waging that have held the giants off this long. With the Yomanry and the Sea Princes to the south fearing the rising threat from the Hellfurnaces and Keoland having never recovered from the Icefall, their allies are few and weak.


Dragons: Greyhawk has, rather surprisingly, never really had a strong dragon threat. Apart from a couple of prominent Greyhawk Dragons, who aren't a threat anyway, the only real ambitious evil dragon I can think of has been Torc. So, GH could use a strong draconic threat, one that could bring other dragons to it's banner. Here's a couple of ideas...

Demo-Dragon: It has a fairly well-known name that could be leveraged in the setting. With strong ties to Demogorgon and a unique appearance, he could be made into a credible threat on Oerth.

The Dragon in Glass: Talenauras: Another idea is one that I've used as a staple in my own GH games. A construct crafted by Boccob in ages past, it was stolen by a deposed devil prince (pick any that is out of favor at the moment). Fusing his essence into this new powerful construct, his ambition grew to the point where Asmodeus himself was forced to step in and banish him to Oerth (forced, or all part of the plan...?).

Not content to live in exile the "Devil-Dragon" settles into a region in the southern Rakers just north of the Flinty Hills and sets about bringing other dragons and summoned devils to his banner, opening defying both Tiamat and Asmosdeus. Indeed he has already slain a number of their followers here on Oerth. Talenauras appears as a dragon of unearthly construction - seemingly composed of stunningly vibrant, flame-hued glass with a skeleton, claws and scale edging of gleaming adamantine. His breath has left scars of flame-tinged glass across the land.

I like the Glass Dragon because it's signature appearance and that is solves the other problem GH has in that there is no strong devil presence in the world.


Next up... new organizations.
 

A'koss

Explorer
Just thought I'd throw out an idea for a new overarching "organization" before getting into the more grounded ones....


The Grey Lords / The Lords of Balance:

One thing I liked from the old Gord the Rogue novels was the idea of a powerful group dedicated to the Balance that wasn’t just an all-wizards club. Assuming the timeline has moved a century in the future, a group of demigods (demigods in 4e sound more like quasi-deities anyway) have come together to fill the role that the Circle of Eight once occupied.

Mordenkainen
Kelanen
The Cat Lord
Heward
Keoghtom
Zuoken
The Demi-urge
 

Najo

First Post
@ A'koss, keep the great ideas coming. Some really strong stuff in there for revitalizing Greyhawk.


@ A'koss and everyone else too:

Now, the trick is, how do you remarket Greyhawk outwardly so you fullfill the following:

1) Get the D&D community to take notice
2) Instantly can distinguish the look and feel of Greyhawk from other fantasy
3) Give Greyhawk selling hooks like the other settings have (Planescape is planar adventuring, Darksun is sword and sorcery in a dying world, Spelljammer is D&D in fantasy space, Eberron is D&D style tech/magic pulp adventure, Forgotten Realms is epic fantasy, Ravenloft is D&D gothic horror).
4) How do you make old-school Greyhawk fans happy with the 3 above?


I am thinking about these questions as I write this and would like to add a couple of points.

* I think that the outside impression for revitalizing Greyhawk is really important. That cover of the campaign setting should just hit you in the face. The logo for the Greyhawk brand should be redone too.

* I think that Greyhawk should be given locations with themes and immediate recognition as starting points in the campaign. One of its problems (and strengths) is that Greyhawk is even less accessible to new players and gms because of its open-endiness.

* I think that Greyhawk's selling point might be Gritty D&D Fantasy. It needs that edge. Not so much dark fantasy, but the world where heroes die, evil threatens it and it doesn't always work out for the best, some sword and sorcery type elements, anti-heroes (alongside true heroes) and the feeling that heroes have to struggle against evil to save the day, more so than other D&D settings. Greyhawk could be that Warhammer type setting for D&D and I am starting to think that is the direction Greyhawk could go and make it work for it.
 

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