D&D 4E How would you re-envision Greyhawk with 4e?

[Steely Dan]

* I think that Greyhawk's selling point might be Gritty D&D Fantasy. It needs that edge. Not so much dark fantasy, but the world where heroes die, evil threatens it and it doesn't always work out for the best, some sword and sorcery type elements, anti-heroes (alongside true heroes) and the feeling that heroes have to struggle against evil to save the day, more so than other D&D settings. Greyhawk could be that Warhammer type setting for D&D and I am starting to think that is the direction Greyhawk could go and make it work for it.

That's what I would like to see, for no matter how hard I try (been 20 years), I can't shake the vanilla vibe I get from Oerth.

 

[vagabundo]

That's what I would like to see, for no matter how hard I try (been 20 years), I can't shake the vanilla vibe I get from Oerth.

Yeah, the need to get rid of the Grey in Greyhawk. Some of the country names are bad. real bad...

 

[Mortellan]

Interesting ideas A'Koss. The setting smashing ones were eyebrow raising to be sure. The Greylords idea however is my favorite and could actually be implemented immediately if one thinks about the adventure Return of the Eight. That mod wasn't a critical success, and the replacement Circle wizards never really grabbed people like the original set did. Leaving the Circle disbanded and going for this new group would be class accomodating and infinitely more dynamic I think.

 

[Najo]

You take the marketing approach I brought up. Mix in everything A'koss is saying with the heroes and villians, artifacts, world events and such, then give it a good look and feel and rename or remove those bad names and I think Greyhawk could have a second life again.

 

[The Ubbergeek]

To be frank, I fear the fandom is a doostep who may block such revival...


I am not against the setting, but the fandom always ended up making me discard it...

 

[A'koss]

I am thinking about these questions as I write this and would like to add a couple of points.

* I think that the outside impression for revitalizing Greyhawk is really important. That cover of the campaign setting should just hit you in the face. The logo for the Greyhawk brand should be redone too.

Absolutely. You need to have the TPTB sit down with a small group of very hot artists and come up with the new Greyhawk "style" (fashion, city design, important NPCs, unique mosnters, marketable locales) distinct from the other settings (which is absolutely key), that others brought in would have to follow.

Take a page from the FR marketing guide and pimp/whore out the most marketable elements of game with splashy covers, books, adventures.

The Grey Lords - Of the group, these three stand apart as the most marketable: Mordenkainen, The Cat Lord & Kelanen.

Though I'm probably more a fan of the male Cat Lord, from a marketing perspective I might go with the uber-hot female one (from Planescape) to the give the group some balance. The Demi-urge works best as a shadowy figure in the background.


Greyhawk's Faces of Evil: Iggwilv, Saint Kargoth & Kas are your most marketable over-arching villains. IMO, make these highly recognizable figures insanely cool (visually, accomplishments and the lands they occupy) and you're well on your way.

Some cover ideas...

- A regal Iggwilv in a grand, shadowy chamber wryly smiling in the presence of the magically bound & tortured souls of many recognizable good beings from angels, dragons to lost members of the Circle of Eight from which she draws her godlike power. Perhaps include daughter Drelnza in the frame as well as a kneeling Iuz.

- Saint Kargoth and his Death Knights (each unique, but not as impressive as he) leading an army into battle. And in the forefront, Kargoth hewing his way through with famous sword Gorgorin the Shatterer, his armor composed of demons writing in bas relief. Keep the perspective slightly looking up to give Kargoth that more imposing feel.

- Kas proudly standing the ruins of his latest victory, the Citadel Cavitus hovering in a storm-filled sky behind him, laying seige to a city, undead everywhere...

- A group of clearly epic-level adventurers scattered in the broken foreground diving, charging, blasting away with powerful magic against a wounded, rampaging Taunin with a house-sized piece of stone raised high overhead poised to smash down on the lead fighter. Perhaps with a exaggerated, overhead perspective on the battle to emphasize the size of these things.


The perception right now is that Greyhawk is too vanilla a setting, and it's true - it needs key selling points to draw new players to the setting - that instant "wow" factor that gets them to take a closer look.

And really, that starts from the top. The "power players" are what's going to sell the setting, they are the ones that get talked about and get that hook into you to look more closely. Greyhawk has the advantage of having some of the best - they just need to be leveraged properly.

* I think that Greyhawk should be given locations with themes and immediate recognition as starting points in the campaign. One of its problems (and strengths) is that Greyhawk is even less accessible to new players and gms because of its open-endiness.

There are seeds of coolness scattered throughout the setting, but sometimes you have to look too hard to find them. It's almost always rested it's greatness on Greyhawk City itself (as the key locale), and IMO having a "key" city in the campaign is good thing, but when everything else is awash in a kind of blah (from an outsiders perspective)...

Yes, they need to zero in on key areas throughout the Flanaess and spice the hell out them. The nations also need to have a clear and interesting "mission statement" (but that's a much larger topic for another post).

* I think that Greyhawk's selling point might be Gritty D&D Fantasy. It needs that edge. Not so much dark fantasy, but the world where heroes die, evil threatens it and it doesn't always work out for the best, some sword and sorcery type elements, anti-heroes (alongside true heroes) and the feeling that heroes have to struggle against evil to save the day, more so than other D&D settings. Greyhawk could be that Warhammer type setting for D&D and I am starting to think that is the direction Greyhawk could go and make it work for it.

I think that it's key that while much of the world is in turmoil, there are still havens where adventurers can put their feet up. Mitrik (perhaps renamed) in Veluna could be Oerth's "Rome", the beacon of light in the world. Greyhawk still plays the neutral role, the rebuilt and vastly improved Fortress Admunfort (with a signature appearance to magical augmentation) is the Bastion of the Shield Lands against the forces of Iggwilv...

 

[A'koss]

Interesting ideas A'Koss. The setting smashing ones were eyebrow raising to be sure. The Greylords idea however is my favorite and could actually be implemented immediately if one thinks about the adventure Return of the Eight. That mod wasn't a critical success, and the replacement Circle wizards never really grabbed people like the original set did. Leaving the Circle disbanded and going for this new group would be class accomodating and infinitely more dynamic I think.

I was never all that keen on the new Circle either, they weren't bad insomuch as made more blah.

Joining the Grey Lords however would be perfect as a Greyhawk-specific Epic Destiny.

 

[A'koss]

You take the marketing approach I brought up. Mix in everything A'koss is saying with the heroes and villians, artifacts, world events and such, then give it a good look and feel and rename or remove those bad names and I think Greyhawk could have a second life again.

I think I could live with that...

To be frank, I fear the fandom is a doostep who may block such revival...

I am not against the setting, but the fandom always ended up making me discard it...

Actually, I hear this complaint more often than I'd like. I think it's essential to move the setting forward 100 years like the FR so you have that breathing room to make changes to the setting, just don't negate what has gone on before.

You're going to anger a certain segment of the fandom off no matter what you do, there's just no getting around that. However, I think so long as you keep it the most important elements recognizably Greyhawk and a really commited creative team behind it (evocative art will be essential in the beginning to put that initial hook into new players), I think it has the potential not to be just a viable setting, but a significant success.

 

[A'koss]

Some evening musings...

I was thinking more on a potential Far Realm Blight (“The Eye of the World”) after hearing more about it in the Monsters & Worlds 4e book and while I think Hepmonaland is not a bad idea, I think it might be a little too remote. There are whole swaths of land in the northern Flanaess that are fairly… blah. I look at the map and I see a perfect spot – the aptly named “Gibbering Gate” in the Rovers of the Barrens. Once a prison/asylum of Iuz’s, he could have easily imprisoned an alienist whom he should have kept a more watchful eye on. And I’m thinking a fairly significant incursion is necessary, and in a completely chaotic manner - stretching into the northern Fellreev Forest, the headwaters of the Coldrun River, towards the Bluff Hills but primarily snaking it’s way haphazardly into the Rovers towards the Sea. This will leave a nice, noticeable blight on the map in a remote, but not too remote region.

Another potential area is somewhere in the Wolf Nomad/Tiger Nomad/Lake Quag region. Big swaths of nothing there ripe for some new alien geography.

I was thinking of a HL adventure possibility where one of the Great Beasts wanders into the region and leaves as a Far Realm monstrosity that corrupts everything it walks over (a little nod to Princess Mononoke there).


Another thing I think should be addressed is all the remote Barbarian Lands (which seriously need to be renamed) that are so isolated they really can’t interact easily with the rest of the world. So either something has to happen to those lands to make them so cool you’d make the arduous trek, or alter the landscape in such a way that it would make it easier for them to sail into the central Flanaess.

I was thinking you could have an event happen (possibly during the Elemental War) that splits the Eastern Continent from Relmor Bay to Grendep Bay, following roughly the river that cuts through the Adri Forest. Then that eastern region where the Kingdom of Ahlissa and North Kingdom are now become their own sub-continent and you have a broad (at least 2 or 3 hexes wide) water access to the Barbarian Lands (and them to you). That leaves the door open then to some good, clean viking-pillaging fun in the central Flanaess! Maybe throw in some Giant/Barbarian alliances, a fleet of Giant War-barges and a burning desire to sack Greyhawk City…

 

[mxyzplk]

I like a lot of these ideas, and arguably I'm a Greyhawk grognard (and was a Living Greyhawk triad). I don't think it'd be necessary to advance the timeline *that* far (like 100 years) - there was plenty of change from 1e to Wars to From the Ashes to the LG Gazetteer. It would also be nice if they used some of the huge amounts of fan-created material from Living Greyhawk region development; I think it would go a long way to making the fan base feel more enfranchised again.

There's nothing in 4e that is different enough from 3.5e Greyhawk to justify 100 years - many of the jumpstarting ideas can happen quickly and it'd be a shame to miss out on some of the cool changes the recent Dungeon Adventure Paths (Age of Worms, Savage Tide) have added to the Greyhawk landscape (in fact, in terms of revitalizing Greyhawk those did a pretty boss job). And Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk.

Iggwilv, Kyuss, Lord Robilar, Iuz, Graz'zt, Mordenkainen, Rary the Traitor... Loads of possible fun. I like the idea of Iuz being supplanted by Iggwilv; he is described as very trained after being caught in the Godtrap in Ruins.

As for the Dragonborn - sure! From the Sea of Dust maybe. Or maybe Rary imports them from some other plane as shock troops in the Bright Desert.

The Circle of Eight was the Citadel of Eight first, and it wasn't always all wizards. No need to get rid of it - it can splinter, get rid of the boring ones... Get Robilar back in it.