D&D 4E How would you re-envision Spelljammer with 4e?

[Silverblade The Ench]

Kill the silly. Amp the cool.

Some of the silly IS the cool

having alternate helm types would be good, but the point is: the helms are magical, where does most magic come from...? Casters. Also, it gives a cool tactical flavour to the game: lose magic to power helm, thus weak in combat, but ship combat is better etc.
The visual idea of a throne as device, is good too. It also stops it being abused as it's not a portable thing (except for rare things like the Crown of the Stars)

Flow voyages can be long but I don't ever recall 'em taking years! However, they can take months, and...that's good! It's not sci-fi, so voyages take time, that's a good thing. You don't need everything done "slam bang!" in 5 minutes. Historical and fantasy fiction voyages usually take a long time when they're going to far off realms.

 

[grimslade]

With what limited knowledge we have of 4E at this point I would:

Change the nature of the helms. There was a great suggestion of following Eberron's elemental airships. I would use the helm as a pump to the Elemental Maelstrom to bring in fresh elemental air and power the ship. There would need to be a feat to navigate and control the helm/ elemental flow. The helm may need a sacrifice of per day abilities. If the classes are balanced why screw only the wizards?

Beholder/Illithid ships would have few of the representative race and a whole bunch of slave/fodder. The minion rules allow for a whole crew that doesn't need to be the BBEG.

Make it its own setting. There are millions of rich possibilities to be had in a Spelljammer campaign without having a Drizzt/Roblilar crossover event. Stealing from other published adventures is a time honored tradition that does not require book space.

Keep it PoL but make it less stable. Rock of Bral can be a good starting place. A neutral ground for all the warring galactic groups. Civil war within the elven empire, eladrin imperators fighting elven secessionists. Dragonborn triremes fight for the highest bidder. A galactic Bael Turath is formed with the might of tiefling Hell Spawn destroyers. Illithid and Neogi picking off stragglers as they leave space ports.

Great opportunities with 4E. What does Feywild space look/act like? Shadowfell space? The scene of a pitched battle between spelljammers in the Elemental Maelstrom fighting off demons and corrupted elementals all the while the Seed of Entropy pulls them closer.

Lots of ideas but little coherence. It's a start anyways.

 

[The Little Raven]

having alternate helm types would be good, but the point is: the helms are magical, where does most magic come from...? Casters.

Rings come from casters as well, but most don't require you to be a caster to use them. Limiting the possible wheelmen to only casters severely limits the options for diverse crews and unique characters, since "wheelman" is only available to a select few.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

Some of the silly IS the cool

Well, I do have a fondness for giant space hamsters and Giff.

having alternate helm types would be good, but the point is: the helms are magical, where does most magic come from...? Casters.

My point is that in re-ENVISIONING the whole thing I don't see "helms" as integral to anything and in many ways restrictive of possibilities.

Flow voyages can be long but I don't ever recall 'em taking years!

Maybe just a BIT of an exaggeration - but not much. If you have large systems with distant outlying planets then you greatly increase the distance to the Crystal Sphere. And travel time in the flow isn't based on anything but a random die roll averaging 55 days - 2 months. If you travel from the center of one large sphere to the center of another you're blowing off MONTHS of time if not years as you start travelling between several spheres. And that's months of SHIP encounters. It does not include delays for repairs, reprovisioning, side adventures...

You don't need everything done "slam bang!" in 5 minutes. Historical and fantasy fiction voyages usually take a long time when they're going to far off realms.

But as I mentioned in Spelljammer nations become planets, etc. If you keep everything in one system you have no problems but if the dwarves live in one sphere, the orcs in another, the humans across several planets and several spheres, and the EIN patrolling everywhere then travelling to other spheres is NOT the same as travelling to "far-off realms".

All of this is HIGHLY dependent upon what you do when you turn Spelljammer into an ACTUAL setting. When you finally establish what planets and spheres are where and what relationships they have with the others THEN you can determine what you want to be a "far-off realm" and place it far enough away with enough obstacles in between to deserve that label.

Frankly, I'd suggest that it would work well to drop the crystal spheres altogether in favor of using the flow as a river/ocean to facilitate rapid movement to outer planets or other solar systems. That's the kind of thing that needs to be at least considered for re-envisioning.

 

[Najo]

First off, I am a big fan of Baron Munchausen. I agree that there are some elements from it that fit in to Spelljammer. With that said, I think if you get too silly with Spelljammer it would hurt its sales. Giant Space Hamsters is bad.

Roleplaying games require suspension of disbelief. If the silly overtakes the believablity for players to immerse themselves, I think people will not take to the setting as much.

Now, with that said, I do agree that Spelljammer should be more fantasy than scifi. It should feel like swashbuckling. More pirates of the carribean than star wars.

Spelljammer should have its own cosmology. Space meets pseudo science of the old setting, then mixed with planar touches. I like the idea of githyaknki pirates coming out of the astral and attacking spelljammers.

Most of the old setting should be kept but giving a new look and feel. Negoi are great. Mindflayers, Scros, Giff, Arcane, spacefaring elves, goblins, dwarves, halgflings, etc. All are good.

I also think helms should be redone. I like the idea of arcane magic fueling the ships. Chaining a wizard to a spelljamming helm is not very fun though and the helm having to high a gold value is an issue too. I think helms and the powersource for the ship should be seperated. Powersources could be bound elementals or living spells in some sort of magical chamber. They could be unstable and difficult to trade or sell and requiring difficult rituals to put into place on the ship. The helm could then be used for guiding the spelljammer, requiring spellcasters to travel through planar flow routes or something.

 

[TwinBahamut]

I don't really know much about Spelljammer, having started D&D at the 3E transition, but the basic concept is something I have always liked.

Certainly, I think the best approach would be to create a true setting for Spelljammer. It would work best in something truly fantastic, far removed from real-world solar systems. Even crystal spheres may not be enough on their own. Perhaps combining crystal spheres with a Paradise Lost-style cosmology (which essentially means bubbles of habitable worlds floating on the Elemental Tempest, each protected by a crystal sphere).

I would probably ignore planes and planar travel in a Spelljammer game, simply because it would be redundant.

Other than saying that it could probably take a lot of inspiration from the Eberron setting and the videogame Skies of Arcadia, I am not sure what else to say.

 

[glass]

Well, I do have a fondness for giant space hamsters and Giff.
My point is that in re-ENVISIONING the whole thing I don't see "helms" as integral to anything and in many ways restrictive of possibilities.

Something's gotta make the ship fly and allow it to be controlled. High-level casters could do it with a spell, but that obviously is even more limiting than a magic item. So, if you are going to use a magic item, 'helm' seems like as good a name as any.

I think the idea of the helm supply the ships air (and gravity) is a good one. The crystal spheres/phlogiston/space hamsters etc never bothered me but the Grubbian gravity and air envelope nonsense always seemed wonky.

So, changes I'd make to Spelljammer:

• I'd change the explanation of how ships get air and gravity as noted above.
• As others have suggested, I'd stop the helms screwing (or even requiring) casters.
• I'd stop the 'tying other campaigns together' as the default (maybe put a sidebar in on the consequences).
• I wouldn't get rid of comedy elements such as giant space hamsters, dohwar and other siliness, but I would de-emphasise them.
• Instead, I'd pay more attention the k'r'r'r and plasmoids (alongside the old favourite -ilithids, beholders, and neogi).
• I don't consider giff to be one of the comedy elemants, btw.
• Finally, I'd pay more attention to adventuring with/on the ship (like original Wildspace adventure but not much since).

None of this has much to do with 4e, honestly. But the only 4e specific things I can think of would be racial feats and the like for the new races, which are a bit tricky at this stage.


glass.

 

[MojoGM]

Something's gotta make the ship fly and allow it to be controlled. High-level casters could do it with a spell, but that obviously is even more limiting than a magic item. So, if you are going to use a magic item, 'helm' seems like as good a name as any.

I agree, the HELM is just too cool to lose.

I think the idea of the helm supply the ships air (and gravity) is a good one. The crystal spheres/phlogiston/space hamsters etc never bothered me but the Grubbian gravity and air envelope nonsense always seemed wonky.

Yes, but how would large asteroid cities like the Rock of Bral get air/gravity? Maybe a magic system that needs to be renewed or recharged occasionally? I never liked ships having a gravity plane that cut through the middle of the ship. That always bothered me.

So, changes I'd make to Spelljammer:

• I'd change the explanation of how ships get air and gravity as noted above.
• As others have suggested, I'd stop the helms screwing (or even requiring) casters.

• 
  
  I was thinking of a FEAT or SKILL that allowed anyone to use a helm, maybe at a temporary loss of 1 wisdom per hour. Mentally exhausting to control a helm, but sleep regains wisdom lost in this way at 1 per hour.
  
  I'd prefer to use a SKILL rather than a FEAT if I can come up with a way that one helmsmen can actually be better than another and have that actually matter, but first I'll need to come up with a ship-to-ship combat system that works...
  
  

  [*]I'd stop the 'tying other campaigns together' as the default (maybe put a sidebar in on the consequences).

  
  Yes, at least at first SJ should be its own setting.
  
  

  [*]I wouldn't get rid of comedy elements such as giant space hamsters, dohwar and other siliness, but I would de-emphasise them.

  
  I'd probably get rid of them.
  
  

  [*]Instead, I'd pay more attention the k'r'r'r and plasmoids (alongside the old favourite -ilithids, beholders, and neogi).

  
  Gotta love the Neogi!
  
  

  [*]I don't consider giff to be one of the comedy elemants, btw.

  
  Me either. I love the Giff. and the Arcane too.
  
  

  [*]Finally, I'd pay more attention to adventuring with/on the ship (like original Wildspace adventure but not much since).

  
  Need a good ship combat system, and a way that all characters can contribute and have a good time. I'm not sure whether to design the ship-to-ship combat from scratch (don't even know where to begin) or adapt it from somewhere else.
  
  Any suggestions?

 

[Lurks-no-More]

How I would do refurbish Spelljammer?

First and foremost, make it a setting of its own; not a half-donkeyed way of connecting existing settings, with all the baggage that involves.

This means giving Spelljammer a tone of its own. I'd go with the 16th-16th-century vibe of pirates, explorers and so on; this would mean adding firearms and cannons (with possibly alchemical and magical versions as well), and getting rid of catapults on ships.

On the other hand, I'd emphasize the fantastic designs of the ships; more Mosquitos, fish-headed Merchantmen, Squidships and Nautiluses, and less longboats, caravels and other boring stuff that only existed because Spelljammer had to include a way for characters from established, non-Spelljamming worlds to get into the setting.

To go with that, refurbishing the ships is a must. The first problem with the existing helm system is that it requires a wizard to power it, and it makes that wizard useless for much anything else. Thus, you either need a NPC to power the ship, or one player to bear the burden.

The second problem is that the helms are way too portable, and very expensive compared to the hull of the ship; this leads to people looting the helms and leaving the hulls behind. Make the motive power come from the structure of the ship, instead; now, if you win a battle against an enemy ship, you have to either leave the ship behind or figure out a way to bring it along, instead of just looting a chair. (Again, I think the easy portability of the helms exists so that you can find one in a dungeon, bolt it into a ship, and fly away.)

And while we're at it, let's ditch all the weird helms that existed to get around the very limited availability of arcane spellcasting in AD&D. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be various drive methods around, just that those shouldn't exist because of the inability of the rules to handle a dwarf wizard.

Finally, I'd ruthlessly purge all the goofiness from the setting. Goofy is not the same as fun; most of the time, it isn't even funny in the long run. Thus for example, no wacky, goofy tinker gnomes (one of the worst aspects of Dragonlance, IMO) with cobbled-together ships powered by rubber bands and giant space hamsters; if you want to have gnomes, make them eccentric but competent engineers, more like Captain Nemo, Robur the Conqueror and so on.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

Something's gotta make the ship fly and allow it to be controlled.

And that can be a chair, a ring, a crown, the keel, the sails, the rudder...

High-level casters could do it with a spell, but that obviously is even more limiting than a magic item. So, if you are going to use a magic item, 'helm' seems like as good a name as any.

And the helm can be powered by spells, by thought, by xp, by a coin-fed slot, according to skill ranks, according to experience level, by race, class, gender, political affiliation... Do not limit "the helm" to being a chair. Don't limit it to being "powered" by spell. Don't limit it to being usable by just 1 or 2 classes.

Look at Spelljammer as written. They started with the idea of helms and having them powered by ONLY spellcasters. Then they proceeded to find every way around that stupid limitation they could - pool helms, series helms, furnaces, non-magical engines (hopelessly under-used and under-developed IMO), forges, and more. Seems to me the "helm" needed re-envisioning right from the start.

I think the idea of the helm supply the ships air (and gravity) is a good one. The crystal spheres/phlogiston/space hamsters etc never bothered me but the Grubbian gravity and air envelope nonsense always seemed wonky.

It was wonky. Simplest method of fixing intersecting gravity planes would be to simply dictate that within 'x' distance objects with gravity planes forcibly rotate to match each other. You lose the idea of fighting in 3 dimensions, but as there were no RULES for fighting in 3 dimensions there's nothing really different - except TRYING to make it make sense.

I don't consider giff to be one of the comedy elemants, btw.

Nor do I, but some people did find them silly.