Human variant archery fighter- did I lock myself into a subpar race?

[Gladius Legis]

I think [MENTION=6780961]Yunru[/MENTION] explained it better. The comparison you made wasn’t well enough defined or at the proper levels it needs to be at in order to be relevant. Why did you take that specific comparison when you could have easily made one at the appropriate levels?

The appropriate levels in that case wouldn't be until Lv. 8 (Fighter 5/(insert multiclass 3)). And it seemed that this thread was going for lower level than that.

 

[FrogReaver]

Since when are we supposed to calculate stuff at different ACs for everything? A baseline 60-65% suffices because that's kind of the average expectation taken over time. Sure, there's variance from enemy to enemy, but over time it averages out to 60-65%. Archery style would bump that to 70% (which I used) or 75%.

Different ACs are helpful when determining something more specific like the breakpoint where -5/+10 starts/stops being optimal. In a general comparison between builds, it's not as useful.

If you are making 3 attacks the rogues sneak attack is a very impactful part of a comparison as it’s dpr contribution changes very little due to the normal ac values you will face.

 

[FrogReaver]

The appropriate levels in that case wouldn't be until Lv. 8 (Fighter 5/(insert multiclass 3)). And it seemed that this thread was going for lower level than that.

Sure and that’s what all the advice said. After 5 levels of fighter if your not happy multiclass to rogue or ranger. Then we got into a debate about whether the rogue or ranger multiclass was better in that situation. Then for some reason you change the situation to look at level 1 fighters with 3 levels of one other class. It made no sense given the specific discussion we were having.

 

[Gladius Legis]

If you are making 3 attacks the rogues sneak attack is a very impactful part of a comparison as it’s dpr contribution changes very little due to the normal ac values you will face.

If you're using a hand crossbow with 18 DEX, the Gloom Stalker's additional attack +1d8 adds more damage than that 2d6 Sneak Attack ever will with at least a 60% hit rate.

.6*(3.5+4.5+4) = 7.2

If you're using a longbow with the same DEX it only takes a 55% hit rate to surpass 2d6 Sneak Attack.

.55*13 = 7.15

Sure, the Assassin's advantage can pull that build back ahead of the Gloom Stalker overall, but the Sneak Attack isn't the hard part for the Gloom Stalker to overcome.

 

[Gladius Legis]

Anyway, Lv. 9 comparison (Fighter 6/X 3). Both Variant Humans. Assuming Assassin gets advantage but no surprise. Assuming Gloom Stalker does not get advantage. All builds take Archery Style and Precision Attack and will attack AC 16 with Sharpshooter trade active (45% hit chance for DEX 16 build, 50% for DEX 18, 55% for DEX 20). Both use Precision Attack when they think they missed by 4 or less (so 20% of the time):

Case 1, longbows
Assassin 3 version took Alert, Sharpshooter, and +2 DEX (18) in order.
Gloom Stalker 3 version took Sharpshooter, +2 DEX and +2 DEX (20) in order.

Assassin:
(.75 + .2*.225)*2*18.5 + (1-(1-.5)^4)*7 = 36
Action Surge (the first part, minus Sneak Attack, gets doubled) = 65.8

Gloom Stalker:
(.55 + .2*.225)*(2*19.5 + 24) = 37.5
Action Surge (whole thing gets doubled) = 75

Case 2, Crossbow Expert at Lv. 1, hand crossbow
Assassin 3 took Alert and Sharpshooter after in order (stays 16 DEX).
Gloom Stalker 3 took +2 DEX (18) and Sharpshooter after in order.

Assassin:
(.6975 + .2*.225)*3*16.5 + (1-(1-.45)^6)*7 = 43.6
Action Surge (extra 2 crossbow attacks) = 68.1

Gloom Stalker:
(.5 + .2*.225)*(3*17.5 + 22) = 40.6
Action Surge (extra Gloom Stalker attack and 2 regular attacks) = 71.7

In any case, the two are pretty comparable at Lv. 9. Gloom Stalker will have a slightly better Action Surge all around.

 

[FrogReaver]

Anyway, Lv. 9 comparison (Fighter 6/X 3). Both Variant Humans. Assuming Assassin gets advantage but no surprise. Assuming Gloom Stalker does not get advantage. All builds take Archery Style and Precision Attack and will attack AC 16 with Sharpshooter trade active (45% hit chance for DEX 16 build, 50% for DEX 18, 55% for DEX 20). Both use Precision Attack when they think they missed by 4 or less (so 20% of the time):

Case 1, longbows
Assassin 3 version took Alert, Sharpshooter, and +2 DEX (18) in order.
Gloom Stalker 3 version took Sharpshooter, +2 DEX and +2 DEX (20) in order.

Assassin:
(.75 + .2*.225)*2*18.5 + (1-(1-.5)^4)*7 = 36
Action Surge (the first part, minus Sneak Attack, gets doubled) = 65.8

Gloom Stalker:
(.55 + .2*.225)*(2*19.5 + 24) = 37.5
Action Surge (whole thing gets doubled) = 75

Case 2, Crossbow Expert at Lv. 1, hand crossbow
Assassin 3 took Alert and Sharpshooter after in order (stays 16 DEX).
Gloom Stalker 3 took +2 DEX (18) and Sharpshooter after in order.

Assassin:
(.6975 + .2*.225)*3*16.5 + (1-(1-.45)^6)*7 = 43.6
Action Surge (extra 2 crossbow attacks) = 68.1

Gloom Stalker:
(.5 + .2*.225)*(3*17.5 + 22) = 40.6
Action Surge (extra Gloom Stalker attack and 2 regular attacks) = 71.7

In any case, the two are pretty comparable at Lv. 9. Gloom Stalker will have a slightly better Action Surge all around.

Build 1: Fighter 6/Rogue 3, Action Surge, Sneak Attack, Assassinate (advantage part), Archery Style, 18 Dex, CE, SS


AC
15
16
17
18
19
20

DPR
86.6
83.8
80.5
76.7
72.5
67.8

Build 2: Fighter 6/Gloom Stalker 3 Action Surge, Sneak Attack, Dread Ambusher (the +1d8 extra attack), Archery Style, 18 Dex, CE, SS

DPR
92.1
85.5
78.9
72.3
65.8
59.2

**Critical hits were not calculated, I estimate precision attack to be a +3 bonus to hit.

Conclusion: Against AC 17+ the rogue version wins out as long as you are able to make use of assassinate. The rogue version always wins out in damage after round 1.

One additional point of consideration. The rogue only needs to beat one of the enemies in initiative to make sure of his Assassinate feature. That means even if he only has a 50% chance of winning initiative with every enemy, if there are 2 enemies he has a 75% chance of going before one, if there are 3 he has a 87.5% chance of going before 1 of the 3. Etc. The point is that in most fights you have a very good chance of getting to use that ability.

 

[Gladius Legis]

The point is that in most fights you have a very good chance of getting to use that ability.

But not necessarily against the enemy you want.

 

[FrogReaver]

But not necessarily against the enemy you want.

Agreed