Hybrids and Armor

[Estlor]

Both classes has to grant Scale armor for you to get Scale armor. If just one class does, you don't get it.

This is a special case. Battle Cleric Lore, the class feature is what grants you proficiency with scale armor. This is separate from the cleric class's armor proficiency. So a hybrid cleric that picks up Battle Cleric Lore gets the entire class feature - including scale armor proficiency.

However, I'd argue this is a case of RAW versus RAI; there was a similar trick with the Battlefront Leader class feature of the warlords that would let hybrids pick up scale and heavy shield for the cost of 1 feat - even if the other half of the hybrid was wizard, for example - and they went back and updated the feat to require chainmail proficiency. One can (safely) assume if it weren't for DDN, a similar patch would probably happen to Battle Cleric Lore.

 

[Gryph]

This is a special case. Battle Cleric Lore, the class feature is what grants you proficiency with scale armor. This is separate from the cleric class's armor proficiency. So a hybrid cleric that picks up Battle Cleric Lore gets the entire class feature - including scale armor proficiency.

However, I'd argue this is a case of RAW versus RAI; there was a similar trick with the Battlefront Leader class feature of the warlords that would let hybrids pick up scale and heavy shield for the cost of 1 feat - even if the other half of the hybrid was wizard, for example - and they went back and updated the feat to require chainmail proficiency. One can (safely) assume if it weren't for DDN, a similar patch would probably happen to Battle Cleric Lore.

I was going to ask if the Character Builder treated the Warlord Feature the same way, but since they updated it I guess the comparison is moot. I don't think the 1 round bonuses are as strong as Healer's Lore without the armor proficiency so it may not need the errata. Probably fine to leave it as it is.

 

[Herschel]

Actually, I think @Blackbrrd is right on this. Hybrid characters only get armor that both classes are proficient in. With Ranger as a second class I believe the character would have hide as the best armor proficiency without spending an additional feat.

You are flat-out wrong and Lord Ernie is correct. While normal hybrid characters follow the general rule, Battle Clerics Lore is a SPECIFIC CLASS FEATURE that is also available to hybrids that grants Scale Proficiency and the Shield Bonus. You can choose either Healer's Lore or Battle Clerics Lore. The debate is whether or not multiclass Clerics can get it (I think not as the way it's worded) but there really is no logical debate that hybrids don't get it.

 

[Herschel]

+2AC and a +2 bonus to hit to whomever the cleric grants a use of a healing surge.

Yep, which is very nice, especially if you build an actual Battle Cleric with Strength primary and Charisma secondary making Healers Lore completely useless.

 

[keterys]

Battle Cleric's Lore would probably be better than Healer's Lore if it gave any one of its three benefits. All three together, and available to hybrids, is... a bit much.

But so it goes. I agree that it might have been changed like the warlord was, if not for DDN and reduced errata in general.

 

[Herschel]

I'm not sure it's that much over-the-top. Strength-based Cleric powers (and a majority of Wisdom-based) are all melee and none of the builds has a light armor/AC-boosting secondary like Bards, Warlords and Shamen so pretty much the only way to go is heavy armor. The shield bonus is very strong, but it's not game breaking.

 

[Breaks]

I'm not sure it's that much over-the-top. Strength-based Cleric powers (and a majority of Wisdom-based) are all melee and none of the builds has a light armor/AC-boosting secondary like Bards, Warlords and Shamen so pretty much the only way to go is heavy armor. The shield bonus is very strong, but it's not game breaking.

I don't think anyone thinks BCL is overpowered for battle clerics, it's just less balanced against the other options available to, say, a barbarian. Hybriding in 4e is one of the easiest ways to unintentionally make a terrible character, but BCL makes hybrid cleric often better than a pure class, for almost any application. The fact that clerics have access to phenomenal damaging and control powers as well as a top-notch defender paragon path and excellent utility selection is all icing on the BCL cake.

The simplest fix would to require use of hybrid talent to swap healer's lore for BCL.

That all said, just because it's often a very good option that solves any latent AC issues a class may have while also adding utility doesn't necessarily mean it's broken. In my mind it's much less broken than the classes stuck with light armor and no primary or secondary stat to AC are. Or even the ones given chain that don't want STR and CON so will be stuck in chain forever (hello non-battle cleric, hello Ardent).

 

[Jhaelen]

But the class feature does work as he thinks. I just popped open the character builder and choosing the "Battle Cleric's Lore" feature does indeed give you access to Scale, even though a Cleric/Ranger would normally only get up to Hide.

...which, of course, proves exactly nothing since it might simply be a bug.

 

[Breaks]

...which, of course, proves exactly nothing since it might simply be a bug.

bug-addled though the CB may be, this isn't one of them.

as explained by multiple people already, getting proficiency via a class feature that is freely available to hybrids is an entirely different beast than checking both class armor proficiency lists and only actually using the duplicates.

the trick works, and is very effective at fixing historically low-AC classes that weren't designed to want DEX or INT.

 

[Herschel]

I don't think anyone thinks BCL is overpowered for battle clerics, it's just less balanced against the other options available to, say, a barbarian.

Somewhat, but again, Barbarians have incentive for having Dex be secondary as well as an AC boost for staying in light armor. They also don't lose speed, which tends to be VERY important for a Barbarian. IME there's a huge difference between speed 5 and 6 on a Barbarian.

Hybriding in 4e is one of the easiest ways to unintentionally make a terrible character, but BCL makes hybrid cleric often better than a pure class, for almost any application. The fact that clerics have access to phenomenal damaging and control powers as well as a top-notch defender paragon path and excellent utility selection is all icing on the BCL cake.

I'll mostly agree with you here also, except for making the hybrid better than the original class. If you're a defender, your marking ability/punishment suffers. If you're a leader, additional riders you spend feats on to boost your class healing power are halved in usefulness and if you're a striker you lose a number of damaging powers, like in the case of a Ranger, off-turn and Nova attacks. The ones that seem to be stronger by hybriding are certain builds like the above-mentioned Thaneborn Barbarian.

The simplest fix would to require use of hybrid talent to swap healer's lore for BCL.

That would be feasible.acceptable.

That all said, just because it's often a very good option that solves any latent AC issues a class may have while also adding utility doesn't necessarily mean it's broken. In my mind it's much less broken than the classes stuck with light armor and no primary or secondary stat to AC are. Or even the ones given chain that don't want STR and CON so will be stuck in chain forever (hello non-battle cleric, hello Ardent).

Yep