I appologize . . .

[d20Dwarf]

I agree that you are in a tough spot in terms of how to handle this when it is not blatantly obvious that there is a problem, so maybe I'll just stay out of these conversations.

Looking at the Section 15 of this product would have revealed that it was in gross violation of the license. That would take 5 seconds, and be responsible.

What's to stop people from distributing other forms of illegal content via RPG Now if there is absolutely no content control?

 

[Asathas]

Not a publisher, just a customer

I've said before in other threads that I'm not a publisher, just a customer... a big customer perhaps but just a customer.

As such, IMHO it's not the responsibility of RPGNow to police the D20/OGL compliance of the products they sell. In all honesty, it's not their responsibility to police even the quality of the products they sell. They provide a very useful comments functionality for people to post and read reviews for that very purpose. I've posted reviews there and I read them before I buy a product (unless I've become very familiar with the publisher and feel confident in the quality of their product such as Malhavoc, Natural 20, Phillip Reed, WorldWorksGames, and so on).

It's also not the responsibility of the community to police D20/OGL compliance of products created by other companies in the field. As a business, it is their responsibility to create product that complies with appropriate licences and distribute it to the available marketplace.

And lastly, it's not the responsibility of the consumer to police the D20/OGL compliance of products they buy. Of all three groups mentioned, they're the ones with the least ability to do so (lack of legal knowledge and lack of familiarity with the terms of the licenses in question). Not to mention that at that point in the chain, the consumer has already purchased the product and is more interested in getting value from it rather than checking for license compliance.

The only parties with responsibility involved are WOTC and the publishers using the D20/OGL licenses and 90% of the burden is on the publishers putting out the product. WOTC's only responsibility is to police the marketplace so they can send those fun "cease and desist" letters so they can protect their intellectual property.

Now it can be argued that past responsibility, there's parties who have an interest because it's in their own best interest that all publishers put out quality and compliant products. RPGNow obviously has an interest because they are the premier sales point for PDF based product. Other online vendors and the FLGS have an interest as they sell print products which also need to be of good quality and compliant. Other publishers want to see good quality and compliant product from their competitors (although maybe not as good as theirs ) because it generates interest in the market and assists in market growth. And of course consumers want good quality and compliant product so they can enjoy what they buy and get more in the future. But the bottom line is... there's no responsibility here, just common interest.

Now I try not to write something like this (and especially one this long) without providing a solution and this one is simple. Use the reviews sections on RPGNow and EN World. Post reviews of products you've purchased. Read reviews before you buy. Publishers that continue to provide good product will get their reputation for it. Publishers that don't will find themselves out of business and the market will be better for it. But if you're absolutely certain that you personally have an interest in keeping the quality of the products made by other companies up... write reviews and see how the consumers react to seeing consistently bad reviews for a product or company.

 

[d20Dwarf]

At what point did businesses shed the responsibility for what they sold? At what point did individuals shed the responsibility for what they bought? I'm looking for the mirror or the rabbit hole, but I can't find either. I want to go back to the real world.

 

[rpghost]

I don't think anyone expects you to look through every product. But if an issue with something comes up.. it is in your best interest to look into it. There were questions and concerns with the product here on EnWorld, with posts by Mongoose and by Ambient Games expressing concern before the product was released.

You are assuming I knew that or had the time during this very busy holiday season to actually toll the boards for such. Again, I'm only human and if people have major issues with a product we sell, they should write ME not complain about the fact that I didn't read some posts on another wesite's forums about the issue.

I just stumbled on this last night after 10pm. I researched what I could and within a couple hours it was clear that this was a major failure to comply with the licenses, so it was taken off line and the publisher was notified.

James

 

[tensen]

Re: Not a publisher, just a customer

It's also not the responsibility of the community to police D20/OGL compliance of products created by other companies in the field. As a business, it is their responsibility to create product that complies with appropriate licences and distribute it to the available marketplace.

Actually in some manner it is the responsibility of the other publishers to make sure all publishers are handling the d20 license properly. The reason is that should I happen to utilize that material in a product of mine later on.. I'm still in violation even though I thought I was correct.. because the other person was in violation. This causes complications on my part.

For instance.. say I release something to OGC, that I didn't have the right to do.. And failed to properly designate in my section 15 block a product that I used OGC from. Now Ambient Games goes and utilizes my product. Hellhound's product is now in just as much violation as mine is, without his knowledge. Should someone then use the OGC from Ambient... their product is incorrect... and so forth. And the originator of possibly some PI that misapprorpiated and released as OGC that everyone else used... can now go and sue everyone in that chain.

 

[Asathas]

Right here... Wizard's SRD Legal

In it you'll find it's a contract between a d20 publisher and WOTC. There's nothing in there about the FLGS or the consumer. And just to be throrough, I also checked the documents hosted at the Open Gaming Foundation and the Wizards d20 page. Nothing in there at all about retailers or consumers... just WOTC and publishers using the licenses.

Now that's truly the definition of legal responsibility. Whether there amy be different moral responsibilities is up to the retailers, publishers, and consumers to decide but as I said before, you already have options available to you the the best of them is to use the reviews feature on this and other sites.

 

[philreed]

I just stumbled on this last night after 10pm. I researched what I could and within a couple hours it was clear that this was a major failure to comply with the licenses, so it was taken off line and the publisher was notified.

I think you handled the problem perfectly.

 

[Asathas]

tensen: Excellent point and to be honest, one I hadn't thought of. Traditionally it is the responsibility of the owner of the IP to police it's use. With OGL, it becomes the responsibility of WOTC and the individual publisher that is creating content to ensure that their product complies. Adding in a third party who intends to reuse OGL content from another OGL publisher makes it a bit sticky and (IANAL) I think would shift the responsibility to that of the first publisher to ensure that their IP is used correctly by other OGL publishers.

Just so you folks know where I'm coming from here... like I said above, I'm not a lawyer. I am a software developer and graphic artist who's had to pay a lot of attention to IP law just so I know on a day to day basis who owns the fruits of my labors and where I stand regarding use of others work. In my opinion, a software developer cannot survive if he doesn't understand at least the basics of IP law.

 

[tensen]

I just stumbled on this last night after 10pm. I researched what I could and within a couple hours it was clear that this was a major failure to comply with the licenses, so it was taken off line and the publisher was notified.

James

James,

Your 1st action passed the blame. Your Second action took responsibility (whether it was appropriate or not) and removed the product. I think everyone was pleased with your second action. The 1st one was the one that had the complaints.

From a PR standpoint your first responce should have been. "We will look into the situation." And everyone would have been happy.

 

[rpghost]

Your 1st action passed the blame. Your Second action took responsibility (whether it was appropriate or not) and removed the product. I think everyone was pleased with your second action. The 1st one was the one that had the complaints.

My first comments were to a person who was personally attacking our store and our abilities. It was a response to the person flaming us for not taking action yet. It had nothing to do with our intentions. It's always or policy to remove illigal or very low quality product. We've done it in the past, we'll continue to do it. What got me was that someone was flaming me cause I didn't do it quicker - yet no one bothered to even email us at RPGNow to tell us about the problem.

So there was only 1 action. We removed the product after confirmed. The first response was just a rebutle to someone who thought it appropriate to bash us in public for this crap being put online.

James