D&D 5E I for one hope we don't get "clarification" on many things.

[giggles]

The resin

Yeah, good point.

It totally could be the case that a 320 page, 2.7 pound rule book allows for more flexibility in interpreting the rules than a 317 page, 2.6 pound book or a 304 page, 2.5 pound one or et cetera, because of resin.

That could happen.

On the other hand...

 

[drjones]

Exactly. The rules for hiding and stealth in 5E are not at all ambiguous. What is left open to DM discretion is the context in which they can be used. Which is perfectly reasonable. Nailing down exactly when a PC is in a position to be able to hide, in a game that takes place in its participants' imagination with a near-infinite number of places and ways a imaginary character could try to hide, would take up blocks and blocks of text without nailing it down to the satisfaction of a rules lawyer. In the interests of simple practicality, it's better to make a judgement call.

That's far too reasonable, we need at least another 50 pages of increasingly precise jargon and intentional obfuscation until we can even begin to get to the not-bottom of whatever the topic is anymore.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I'm finding clarity and detail are being confused here - and it's leading to people talking past each other.

Clear rules I find essential. If the rules aren't clear then I, as player, can't work out whether I'm likely to be able to do something in character.

An example of a game with clear and non-detailed rules would be Lasers and Feelings. The only thing that matters for your roll is whether it's combat (lasers) or not (feelings). You use the same number for both - one's roll over, one roll under. Minor details don't matter much. But it's pretty obvious what you do and how to resolve anything.

An example of a game with clear and detailed rules would be GURPS 3E (especially with GURPS Vehicles). You have literally dozens of skills, point buy off at least 100 points - and if you want to design a car using the vehicles rules, the chassis weight is based on the square of the cube root of the volume and IIRC you want to pick the power of the engine in kW. Everything works, the maths is good, but you need a spreadsheet to work the full thing out. Or to be 14, ill in bed, bored, good at maths, and determined.

If I were to mention games with rules I found unclear they'd all be perjoritive, so I won't.

When I hear people opposing rules being clarified what I hear is that they are opposing rules being easily usable and the player being able to guess at their chance of success. What I think is meant is they are opposing detail as in GURPS Vehicles. That they want a system that doesn't sweat the small stuff. Would I be right here?

 

[Warbringer]

Id like to see the DMG and the online resources take an active role here is helping newbie DMs communicate and resplve situations that appear to have "fictional ambiguity" as far as the rules are concerned.

This is something us old bastards take for granted (and I believe we actively resent being told how to resolve every situation with high rules codification).

A DM workshop (Chris P I'm looking at you) would be perfect.

It's fine to say use your imagination and judgment, but don't fail to teach them.

Ps... Posting on the board from an iPhone is painful .... Anyone use the app?

 

[Mouseferatu]

[MENTION=2525]Mistwell[/MENTION], I agree with most of your comments about jargon, but "agency"--as a term for discussing a person's ability to effect change via their own efforts--has been used for both literary and real-life purposes long before it became an RP term. I don't think we can qualify that one as jargon.

 

[BoldItalic]

I think we need precise rules about what exactly happens when a PC uses the Fictional Positioning cantrip.

What if there is an enemy creature within 5ft of the PC's fictional position? Does it get an AoO?

If a rogue was about to rely on the PC being adjacent to an enemy in order to claim Sneak Attack, but the caster uses Fictional Positioning, does the sneak attack fail?

It's no good saying "DM's Call", that's just sloppy design.

 

[Mistwell]

Yeah, good point.

It totally could be the case that a 320 page, 2.7 pound rule book allows for more flexibility in interpreting the rules than a 317 page, 2.6 pound book or a 304 page, 2.5 pound one or et cetera, because of resin.

That could happen.

On the other hand...

Or you could strawman the argument and pretend page count had been mentioned when it had not been mentioned.

I am in the fashion industry. Resin applied to fabrics (and it's essentially the same resin being applied to paper) increases weight by a lot. A shiny piece of paper can weigh a lot more than a matte piece of paper. A heavy pulp page can weigh a lot more than a newspaper pulp page, etc.. WEIGHT of a book is not necessarily in any way tied to quantity of content. I have some children's books that are 12 pages long that weigh as much as a 400 page paperback book. It's just a nonsense criteria to judge a book literally by it's weight.

Now page count, that has at least a lot more correlation to quantity of content. But I was not responding to a post that mentioned, or even hinted at, page count.

 

[Dimitrios]

When I hear people opposing rules being clarified what I hear is that they are opposing rules being easily usable and the player being able to guess at their chance of success. What I think is meant is they are opposing detail as in GURPS Vehicles. That they want a system that doesn't sweat the small stuff. Would I be right here?

WRT the discussion about stealth, I think some people think that excessive clarification ends up as an attempt to take the DM out of the picture. As someone mentioned earlier, there are potentially an almost infinite variety of situations in which someone could try to hide, and it's pointless to try to cover every possibility with explicit rules.

 

[giggles]

Now page count, that has at least a lot more correlation to quantity of content. But I was not responding to a post that mentioned, or even hinted at, page count.

You've got me now. You have so got me on that page count point!

God! Why didn't I bring up page count in the first place?! If I had, then I would have secured my position that two rule books of comparable size and scope and detail could not possibly be written under different philosophies of rules interpretation--though they certainly could be marketed differently...

Ah! My position would have been secure against all assault, if only I had thought to refer to pages, too, rather than let poundage stand for--ach, it doesn't matter.

I retreat under the weight of resin. Maybe I'll go over to that Beastmaster thread in which somebody posted a Twitter exchange with Mearls, in which Mearls clarified a rule, which exchange proves that, in a rulings over rules system, you don't need to get clarifications from the designers to play D&D right.

The last we'll hear from Mike Mearls on that count!

Of course, all of this is moot, because the DMG remains unreleased (probably because,in good, old fashioned, old school, rulings over rules proportions, it'll run to 650 pages or, roughly, five pounds, depending, of course, on the kind and amount of the resin).

 

[Mistwell]

You've got me now. You have so got me on that page count point!

God! Why didn't I bring up page count in the first place?! If I had, then I would have secured my position that two rule books of comparable size and scope and detail could not possibly be written under different philosophies of rules interpretation--though they certainly could be marketed differently...

Ah! My position would have been secure against all assault, if only I had thought to refer to pages, too, rather than let poundage stand for--ach, it doesn't matter.

I retreat under the weight of resin. Maybe I'll go over to that Beastmaster thread in which somebody posted a Twitter exchange with Mearls, in which Mearls clarified a rule, which exchange proves that, in a rulings over rules system, you don't need to get clarifications from the designers to play D&D right.

The last we'll hear from Mike Mearls on that count!

Of course, all of this is moot, because the DMG remains unreleased (probably because,in good, old fashioned, old school, rulings over rules proportions, it'll run to 650 pages or, roughly, five pounds, depending, of course, on the kind and amount of the resin).

Yes if only you had said what you were thinking instead of trying to get us to read your mind and then, when you discover you screwed up and said something different from what you were thinking, being all snarky and sarcastic and pretending your intent was obvious even though it was not.

You're new. Might I recommend you just be polite to your peers instead? I find it works a heck of a lot better to engage in interesting conversation.