I heard that there is a "fix" to Time Stop...

[KarinsDad]

Tzarevitch -

Caliban and KD find the "gobs of damage" concept unbalancing. They are attempting to manipulate the time stop spell in such a way as to prevent this.

Hmmm.

I wasn’t trying to do that.

I was trying to find a good way to adjudicate Time Stop.

Tzarevitch’s method does that.

I agreed with Caliban that the way Time Stop is written in the book that Haste “stacked” onto it would make it unbalancing. The reason for that, however, is that the Wizard within the Time Stop can then cast a maximum of 15 spells (if he rolls the D4), all of which can work (normal, hasted, and quickened). Dropping that to 10 max (by not stacking) where 5 are at best Quickened is more balanced.

However, with Tzarevitch’s method, there are a lot of spells which will no longer work with Time Stop. I would estimate that without the use of feats, more than 80% of the spells which previously worked fine with Time Stop would no longer work.

Hence, there is balance there.

Does that mean that you cannot find good spell combinations to work with Tzarevitch’s method? Of course it doesn’t.

But, you also cannot just use any old spell you happen to have memorized either.

You must have spells with a duration that effect others, or spells with a duration where others have to make a save each round, or you must have meta-magicked spells (obviously easier for a Sorcerer) in order to seriously effect others.

You gain something (Haste definitively works with this house rule), but you lose more (instantaneous spells like Fireball do not work without a feat, you cannot pick up just any item you find, duration ticks off on spells, etc.). Plus, the spell is a lot easier to adjudicate.


One note on Tzarevitch’s method: I would change it from 50 pounds to whatever is in the spell caster’s possession when he casts the spell. Not all spell casters are arcane Wizards with light loads. Some are Clerics with the Trickery feat or even Dragons. It would be tough on the Cleric if he could not move due to his equipment and armor falling outside of the 50 pound limit.

 

[Caliban]

I agree that rewriting the time stop spell is the simplest way of "fixing" it. I've said all along that it was poorly written. I really do hope that they put out some real errata on it some day so that these multi-page debates aren't necessary.

I was just trying to propose an acceptable way of adjudicating within the framework of the spell as currently written. (And I really do think that haste wouldn't operate within the time stop rounds, even under the current version of the spell.)

I'm not so much concerned about being able to do a lot of damage. Four or five delayed blast fire-balls can be dealt with in various ways (evasion, Protection from Elements, lots of hit points, etc.). It's the ability to chain cast three time stops while hasted and then being able to cast over 20 spells before anyone else get's to act. That allows an enemy wizard to target each PC with 3-5 spells, tailored to their class weaknesses. (And yes, this is possible under the most common interpetation of time stop, using quicken spell, haste, etc.) And if you are facing an enemy wizard of 18-20th level, odds are that he's heard about the party, and has determined each PC's most apparent weaknesses.

 

[Gromm]

And if you are facing an enemy wizard of 18-20th level, odds are that he's heard about the party, and has determined each PC's most apparent weaknesses.

At that level he can find out thier weaknesses pretty easily.

I'm with Caliban on how time stop needs to be fixed to save the game at level 18+.
Consider a "big enemy" mage that knows about a party. He casts a divination spell to find where they are (easily done, most party members can't hide from divinations), or uses spys, etc.
Said wizard casts haste, time stop.
Wizard teleports without error to locale of party. Wizard bombards players with various spells, casts another timestop, bombards and on his last action teleports without error to a safe house.

Heres what the party hears and sees.
DM:"You're walking through the forest on your way to Silverymoon, everyone make me 6 reflex saves. Mage make me 2 Fort saves, Fighter make 2 Will saves."
(Vast amounts of dice rolling by PCs and especially DM).
DM:"Ok the world explodes into flames, the mage is vaporized, the fighter gets a strange look in his eye, everyone else take 125 points of damage, cept the rogue, you only take 65. Give me an initiative roll, the fighter is advancing on you."

Now this is assuming you don't allow haste and that the enemy doesn't have say a few extra scrolls of time stop laying around.
Even with just one timestop this could happen, just less obvious every round.
Theres no longer a game. People just roll dice until they fail a vital save, never having seen an enemy. I don't think WotC intended the game to end at level 18. I'm perosnally hoping for something official in the Epic Levels book if nothing else. I don't see how they could overlook a spell that destroys high level gaming in a book on high level gaming.

 

[KarinsDad]

It's the ability to chain cast three time stops while hasted and then being able to cast over 20 spells before anyone else get's to act.

Actually, I was thinking earlier (but not at the point that I was actually writing a response to this) that there are two potential solutions to this problem.

1) At super high level, you could probably maximize Time Stop, but within core rules, you cannot.

Hence, if the spell caster was unaware of how many rounds he gets, he would be unable to accurately do a Time Stop chain.

2) I think that Time Stop should be (as part of the spell) disallowed while in Time Stop. In other words, you cannot put a time bubble onto a time bubble. Although this rule is not strictly needed within core rules if you have #1, it would reinforce #1.

Originally posted by Gromm

Theres no longer a game. People just roll dice until they fail a vital save, never having seen an enemy. I don't think WotC intended the game to end at level 18. I'm perosnally hoping for something official in the Epic Levels book if nothing else. I don't see how they could overlook a spell that destroys high level gaming in a book on high level gaming.

As a side note, there seems to be a lot of concern over the concept of Time Stop, followed by a boatload of spells, end of story for enemies.

While this might be a legitimate concern for NPC spell casters (the DM really can do anything), PC spell casters typically cannot afford this type of behavior too often. The reason is that PCs cannot be sure that they are not "shooting their wad" for nothing. For example, is that a real enemy Wizard casting at you, or is it a Projected Image?

I play a Wizard all of the time (currently playing two in two campaigns) and the only way to survive is to only cast spells when necessary, not every round you get a chance. Otherwise, there just are not enough spells when you need them, or you have to suck down magical items such as Wands.

Granted, a 17th level caster will often have a full complement of 35 or more spells, but if he is casting Haste and/or Time Stop a lot, it doesn't take much for a DM to throw 3 moderately powered encounters followed by a very powerful encounter to really illustrate the lesson that this type of tactic on the part of a PC is suicidal or nearly suicidal.

Nothing like dying to learn a lesson.

All in all, I think people are overreacting a little, especially if you use something like Tzarevitch’s method where most of your offensive spells are kind of worthless while in Time Stop.

 

[green slime]

I think the problem is multilayered.

1.
As a DM, why don't you have your high level NPC wizards/Trickery clerics/Bards with maxxed out UMD doing this?

For the same reason players can only get it together like this on occassion. High level NPCs have a LOT of problems on their plate, not just pesky PCs on their way to Silverymoon. They are worried not about just one group of adventurers, but HUNDREDS of potential allies/enemies. Who is really behind the PCs actions?

2.
It isn't the Time Stop in itself, but what you can do with it in combination with lots of other spells. Remarkably, Teleport comes into the picture alot, as it seems "unfair" that the culprit can get away "scot-free", without the PCs even seeing their nemesis.

But as the Wizard still needs to target the individuals, they (the soon to be dead) must surely be able to at least have a chance to Spot their enemy (not that they can do anything about it, but they would then be able to recognize the culprit). Even though greatly speeded up, I can still see a train go by, even the bullet trains of Japan, and I suspect the have a speed surpassing 30 feet per 6 seconds...

Also note, that at this level, death is not so fearsome, that PCs wander around with Persistent Protection from X element, Mindblank and various devices hinder Scrying. Especially the last mentioned would be enough to cause the careful-minded to err on the side of caution, could the destructee not locate ALL the party.

So chances are at least that someone in the group will survive, pull the pieces back together, and the attacking mage will have achieved little.

3. Getting copious amounts of time, to spend more time preparing more damage.

Why allow the casting of Time Stop while Time Stopped? I think this I would not allow. You are already "outside the loop", "bent outside time", "beyond the flow", "greatly speeded"...whatever. It just seems to me like plain greedy "gimme" to me.

BTW, I'm with Caliban on the Haste thing. Other than that, and the above mentioned No-no of casting Time Stop while timestopped, I'm OK with this thing. Granted Tzarevich's suggestion and the possibility of only using Delay Spells and those with a Duration, this spell doesn't seem too powerful (VERY powerful, just not too powerful). (No PCs of 17th+ level yet...)

 

[Gez]

Well, I would say that if you cast multiple Time Stops in one Time Stop, they don't stack: you conserve only the highest roll, but since you'll have lost some of your extra actions to cast the other Time Stop, it's not very beneficial. I'm also with Caliban on Haste and Time Stop, it's just what I find is the most logical and consistant with the other stacking rules.

Myself, I allow any spell to be casted while on Time Stop, but they affect only the caster. The reasoning ? Well, you'll understand it if you perform this little experiment:

Lit a candle. Wave your hand very quickly in the flame. You're not hurted. Now, leave your hand a whole second in the flame. Ouch ! And if you leave your hand a whole minute, you would probably endure long-lasting damage to your hand. Same thing with spells. All actions that you perform while in Time Stop are also accelerated. That's why you can walk and fly faster. But the rest of the world is less affected by this. Suppose you slit the throat of someone while you're time stopped, the cutting will be so quick it will be perfectly cut -- meaning it will readhere instantly and your victim will not be, in fact, affected. A fireball would similarly be too fast to be felt. However, since you are accelerated as well, you would be "in synch" with these effects, so that if you blow a fireball at close range, noone save you would felt it. For this reason, Time Stop can only be used for personal spells (or spells with a greater range, but used as personal spells).

 

[Victim]

Except that, by the rules of the time stop spell, durations don't begin until after the Time Stop ends. Therefore, whatever spell effects you create while time stopped don't take effect until the spell ends.