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I heard that there is a "fix" to Time Stop...

Tzarevitch

First Post
Here's how I run timestop

Personally, I thought the 3e Timestop spell was a load of crap the minute I read it. I house-ruled it a long time ago and it has seemed to work out well. The spell was simply too unbalancing and was inconsistant as written.

The way I run timestop is that it gives the caster a "frozen moment". When the caster casts the spell he and 50 lbs of possessions on his person step into the space of time literally between the ticks of a clock. Time does not pass for anyone or anything else.

Since time does not pass for anyone or anyone or anything else, during the Timestop rounds, everything that was not part of the caster + 50lbs, appear to be frozen in space and time as they have not entered the new timeframe that the caster has created for himself.

Things and beings that are not in the timeframe with the caster cannot be affected by anything that happens in that frozen time because literally that time does not exist for them. No time has passes for them so they cannot be affected by anything that would change their situation in the smallest way from what it was when the spell was cast.

Time does however pass for the caster, his possessions and any spells that he had cast on him. (In other words, spells the caster has on him continue to count time as he does, so they DO count the timestop rounds toward their durations. Spells that the caster had cast before the timestop and are not on his person do not enter the frozen moment. I.e. the caster's stoneskin cast on himself counts the duration. The caster's wall of fire over yonder does NOT count the timestop rounds. The caster's stoneskin cast on someone else also does not count the timestop rounds.)

Spells cast in the timestop rounds take effect immediately as per their descriptions, but they cannot affect anything that is non-timestopped in any way. Since they came into being during the timestopped rounds they do count those rounds against their duration.

Once real-time resumes, there is a momentary flicker as everything in the timestop falls back into realtime. During that flicker, everyone and everything receives their entitled saves vs. effects with durations that were created in the timestop and now threaten them.

Summation of effects:

1. The caster and 50 pounds of his possessions (plus all spells on his person) count real rounds AND timestopped rounds.

2. Beings, objects and any spell not on the caster's person NEVER count the timestop rounds toward thir duration because that time does not exist for them. (This CAN result in the same spell having different durations for different people.)

3. People and objects that do not count the timestopped rounds cannot be affected by anything that goes on in the timestopped rounds. (It is possible for them to be affected once the timestop ends if the effect is a lingering one. ) Objects and beings cannot be harmed, displaced or manipulated by any force. Instantaneous effects cannot affect them in any way.

4. Spells and effects created by the caster of the timestop while he is in the timestopped rounds always take effect as per their descriptions. They share the timestop and count its rounds towards their duractions as do whatever effects they create (conjured creatures DO also count the timestopped rounds and can act freely in the timestop so long as they were summoned while the the timestop was in effect.)

5. People and objects that did not count the timestopped rounds see a momentary flicker as those who were in the timestop rounds catch up at the end of the duration. During that flicker time re-joins itself and everyone and everything who was entitled to receive a saving throw against an affect that was created during the timestop and is still around as it ends. The creature or object recieves whatever save it was entitled to when the spell effect was created. If the spell grants additional saves against a ligering affect, those now affected by the spell can choose to save vs. the later effect of the lingering spell instead if it would produce a more favorable result.

(For example, say a spell grants an initial Reflex save for partial damage, but grants later Reflex saves to avoid for rounds after the first and said spell has already counted off three rounds during the timestop. You can choose to make a Reflex save to avoid since the spell is on round three instead of the Reflex save vs. the initial effect (Reflex save for half)).

In short the nonsense about spells hanging in the air never happend since the caster is the one who is affected by the spell not the world around him. If a spellcaster wants to have a spell affect someone once the timestop is over he'd better learn Delay Spell, Delayed Blast Fireball or cast a spell with a duration long enough to last out the timestop (not hard at minimum 17th level).

Tzarevitch
 

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KarinsDad

Adventurer
Re: Here's how I run timestop

Tzarevitch said:

In short the nonsense about spells hanging in the air never happend since the caster is the one who is affected by the spell not the world around him. If a spellcaster wants to have a spell affect someone once the timestop is over he'd better learn Delay Spell, Delayed Blast Fireball or cast a spell with a duration long enough to last out the timestop (not hard at minimum 17th level).

This is the best solution I have heard.

I was trying to get here, but I couldn't quite get my head around all of the requirements necessary.

But, this would be a perfect time bubble solution which solves all of the balance problems.

If you cast a spell that cannot delay or does not require a save every round, guess what? You are SOL on the attempt. Better study a lot of Walls of Fire, Stinking Clouds, even Solid Fogs.

Plus, Haste works fine with this. Who cares if you get multiple spells off if none of them affect anyone else. So, you put up a bunch of defensive magic and a few area effect non-instantaneous spells. You still will probably not blow away the enemy Wizard and on his turn, he can cast Time Stop and put up all of his defensive magic.

Well done Tzarevitch! :)
 

Magus_Jerel

First Post
um - slight problem here...

Delayed blast fireball.
Use the greater rod item from TaB that lets you maximize any spell 3x daily.

100d6 fire damage....

energy substitution or delay spell feat needed for added variety.

I hate to say it - but this proposed "fix" won't work. Either you are forced to do take the illogical path that LC does - or be a bit more... literal with the text concerning free actions and how initiative works. Check out some of the text related to simultinaeity in the DMG - and you might get it a bit better. I have defended the possibility of the "quickened spell solution" to the death already - and am not about to continue it when I get assulted for it every single time.

As Aggemam said - it is one of those "basic assumptions one makes that we would think you don't need to point out". It is also - as I see it here - a wrong assumption. Read some of Aggemam's posts - not "falling" until it is - your turn? How logical and reasonable do they sound?

Even if you ban the item needed to ensure you know just how much time you will have under Time Stop to set up this situation - you are still going to be faced with this when you run into epic level gaming folks. If you aren't used to running high level campaings that have wizards around - people will tend to make these sorts of rulings and not realize the implications.

D and D is wonderful - and was principally designed for - characters in the first thru tenth level ranges. Most of the monsters in the MM are geared towards these types of characters. Once you get over 10th level - you start getting into Demons, Devils, Celestials, and Dragons.

I was a munchkin kid for WAY too long - and had too much fun messing with the game when the GM wasn't thinking about things to throw monkeywrenches into well laid plans and rules. I got to change characters that way - when a power or two got unbalanced - I would turn the character over and build something else. I'm sorry - but I have been punching holes in people's ways of thinking for way to long NOT to tell you this.

It is for that reason - that my players find that I make an awesome referee. When push comes to shove - I can out min/max - or find a hole in - just about any rule or character concept that exists. If they min/max too much - they know full well that I will find and hit their "min" if they get abusive of the rules - or apparent holes in the rules. My campagn setting - and storytelling, have developed over time, but my understanding of the rules has been there since day one.

With the advent of third edition - I finally got to do something. I got to tell all of these wonderful people who are great players but bad referees something. I have seen these books for just as long as you have - so while you might be better at role-playing - there is no way you could possibly be a better "more experienced" referee with this set of rules. Its your game - and you may never run into someone who would see this "loophole" - and be deliberately malicious and use it in an adventure to demonstrate it to you in game "Proof of Concept style".

I hate to say it - but I was once one of those players. I see in some of you folks the same mentality that I saw in those GM's; and that worries me. I wouldn't want someone like what I once was coming in and ruining your adventure, or evening. There are things that seem insignificant and trivial - ways of thinking that so many players hold as residual from the first and second editions of the game. It biases you...

Personally, I thought the 3e Timestop spell was a load of crap the minute I read it

Tsarevitch

Am I a prophet - no... I have just been doing this long enough to tell you that the can of worms you are opening up by taking this route is going to get real ugly real fast if you ever do run high level/epic adventures.
 

KarinsDad

Adventurer
Magus_Jerel said:
um - slight problem here...

Delayed blast fireball.
Use the greater rod item from TaB that lets you maximize any spell 3x daily.

100d6 fire damage....

energy substitution or delay spell feat needed for added variety.

I hate to say it - but this proposed "fix" won't work.

Sure it will. You just do not seem to see the big picture.

Magus_Jerel said:

It is for that reason - that my players find that I make an awesome referee.

so while you might be better at role-playing - there is no way you could possibly be a better "more experienced" referee with this set of rules.

I see in some of you folks the same mentality that I saw in those GM's

My, don’t you sit up on a high horse. Why even bother to talk down to us little people?


I bet to differ. Caliban is fives times as experienced as you have illustrated yourself to be (of course, Caliban is a high level 3E expert, so maybe I shouldn’t pull out such a big gun for such a little problem). You, however, still incorrectly think that free actions can be done out of your turn in a turn based system, even after being shown multiple quotes from the PHB which show differently.


The first time I saw the Metamagic feat rods in T&B I said "Not in my game". You, on the other hand, use this munchkin item to illustrate how you can sidestep a perfectly fine solution. The point of a good game is to not allow the munchkin items into your game, so I tend to ignore counter positions that rely on them.


The rest of us can perceive, even ahead of time, the same munchkin and even mainstream problems that you do. Most of the rest of us can even handle them in our games.

The point of DND is to have fun. So, if I'm running a high level campaign and one of my PCs has Time Stop, guess what?

Sometimes he does great with it. Sometimes it blows up in his face. Most of the time, it is somewhere in between.

It doesn't take a whole lot of imagination to have hidden opponents who target the Wizard the round after he comes out of Time Stop, regardless of how many NPCs he blew up. No munchkin solution is perfect.


So in the meantime, unless you can come up with a better solution for Time Stop, I'll stick with Tzarevitch's. It's the one that so far makes the most sense and is easy to adjudicate.


And, on a side note: Regardless of differing opinions with me, I truly respect Caliban and most other posters for their positions on various topics. Why? Because they have integrity and even if they say something incorrect or inappropriate, they apologize once they realize it.

But so far, you have yet to post something really worthwhile on this thread. You spent part of this thread inadequately arguing that players can use free actions out of their turn when that is obviously incorrect. Talking down to us, not coming close to proving your point on free actions, and not coming up with a good solution to Time Stop, you have yet to impress me. Yawn. Come back to the big league DND discussions when you get a few more levels of 3E under your belt.

Magus_Jerel said:

Am I a prophet - no... I have just been doing this long enough to tell you that the can of worms you are opening up by taking this route is going to get real ugly real fast if you ever do run high level/epic adventures.

So far, after your discussion on free actions, I think I'll take my chances with my own common sense and pass on your wisdom here. Besides, us inexperienced DMs have to learn things on our own in order to level up. ;)
 

Magus_Jerel

First Post
Once players find one spell - just ONE that they can break - that is all it takes.

Proof of concept = LC

Delayed Blast fireball has a Duration - which means that it "counts" count in the time stop. My "goal" is to make the spells linger in the time stop until just before they detonate. Depending upon which deviation you want from universal quantum mechanical theories - you either have to set the durations to "count down" 5,4,3,2,1 - or you set them to go off at the end of your true "round" - whichever false quantum physical reality you want to adopt.

The effect is the same - 100d6 kaboom at a given instant.

Proof of concept =
3. People and objects that do not count the timestopped rounds cannot be affected by anything that goes on in the timestopped rounds. (It is possible for them to be affected once the timestop ends if the effect is a lingering one.)

The "beads" are the effect that lingers.
Get it? - got it? - good.

I'll Imagine that you and Caliban have tons and tons of experience running games - but how long have you been running third edition D and D - THIS game? I'm not counting first and second editions - just third edition. Since we all started from that day at Gen Con not too long ago when the books were first released - we have all had the same exact amount of time to look at the same rules set.

Making the rules, is a whole lot harder than punching nice big gaping holes in them, and pointing out flaws. People don't like getting their fragile worlds jolted. Well - I do it - because I want to see that world that you so brilliantly run get better than it already is. It is fun to see the system grow and improve with time, and watch players learn. You two are clearly "seasoned old dogs" at this - I'm just that "young puppy". You want to know WHY I like to "punch holes"? - Its a whole heck of a lot more fun than seeing somebody punch a nice big hole in something in real life... and watch a few thousand people die on CNN.

EXCUSE ME FOR TAKING A BIT OF STRESS RELIEF HERE

- by arguing rules that don't get people killed - just characters.







ok... meanies have it your way take your ruling;

You can take this ruling - that's fine. You can make the die roll - so the player won't know the duration of the time stop, and ban the nifty magic item. cool....

Proof of concept by prediliction =

There won't be any problems - until what? Epic level campaings will come out. Then, your player can maximize the time stop spell in one of those "epic" spell slots. Now the player knows they have five rounds coming.
5 4 3 2 1 -
boom.
break the game - right then, right there - no sooner, no later.

Of course, you will deny that this will happen from now - until you get it used in your game. Then, hopefully, you will actually think about this particular point differently. Until then, it is absolutely hopeless - you have made that QUITE clear.
 
Last edited:

Tzarevitch

First Post
Magus_Jerel said:
Once players find one spell - just ONE that they can break - that is all it takes.

Proof of concept = LC

Delayed Blast fireball has a Duration - which means that it "counts" count in the time stop. My "goal" is to make the spells linger in the time stop until just before they detonate. Depending upon which deviation you want from universal quantum mechanical theories - you either have to set the durations to "count down" 5,4,3,2,1 - or you set them to go off at the end of your true "round" - whichever false quantum physical reality you want to adopt.

The effect is the same - 100d6 kaboom at a given instant.

Proof of concept =


The "beads" are the effect that lingers.
Get it? - got it? - good.

I'll Imagine that you and Caliban have tons and tons of experience running games - but how long have you been running third edition D and D - THIS game? I'm not counting first and second editions - just third edition. Since we all started from that day at Gen Con not too long ago when the books were first released - we have all had the same exact amount of time to look at the same rules set.

Making the rules, is a whole lot harder than punching nice big gaping holes in them, and pointing out flaws. People don't like getting their fragile worlds jolted. Well - I do it - because I want to see that world that you so brilliantly run get better than it already is. It is fun to see the system grow and improve with time, and watch players learn. You two are clearly "seasoned old dogs" at this - I'm just that "young puppy". You want to know WHY I like to "punch holes"? - Its a whole heck of a lot more fun than seeing somebody punch a nice big hole in something in real life... and watch a few thousand people die on CNN.

EXCUSE ME FOR TAKING A BIT OF STRESS RELIEF HERE

- by arguing rules that don't get people killed - just characters.







ok... meanies have it your way take your ruling;

You can take this ruling - that's fine. You can make the die roll - so the player won't know the duration of the time stop, and ban the nifty magic item. cool....

Proof of concept by prediliction =

There won't be any problems - until what? Epic level campaings will come out. Then, your player can maximize the time stop spell in one of those "epic" spell slots. Now the player knows they have five rounds coming.
5 4 3 2 1 -
boom.
break the game - right then, right there - no sooner, no later.

Of course, you will deny that this will happen from now - until you get it used in your game. Then, hopefully, you will actually think about this particular point differently. Until then, it is absolutely hopeless - you have made that QUITE clear.

Uhhh . . .

Why do I have the feeling that I just entered in the middle of an argument. I have tried to read the back posts on this thread but I can't figure out exactly what the argument is about the Maximize Rod and D-B Fireball.

The timestop correction that I proposed was not intended to ban the ability to inflict gobs of damage as you come out of timestop. The entire concept of the spell seems to be to assist with inflicting gobs of damage. I was just trying to propose a more logical and easily adjudicated rule about how to do it and avoid constant questions about which spells hang in the air and who can perform what actions.

Tzarevitch
 

hong

WotC's bitch
Tzarevitch said:

Why do I have the feeling that I just entered in the middle of an argument.

I'm "entering the middle of an argument" RIGHT NOW, if you know what I mean, and I think you do.

I have tried to read the back posts on this thread but I can't figure out exactly what the argument is about the Maximize Rod and D-B Fireball.

I'm MAXIMIZING MY ROD RIGHT NOW, if you know what I mean, and I think you do, BAY-BEE!!!1!

Delayed blast FIREBALLS PRIMED and READY TO BLOW!!11!!


I'm sorry.
 

Magus_Jerel

First Post
Tzarevitch -

Caliban and KD find the "gobs of damage" concept unbalancing. They are attempting to manipulate the time stop spell in such a way as to prevent this. The only way to do it - is actually ban the spell, and a couple of Psionic powers as well - which are identical in concept. I have been trying to prove this point several different ways - but they didn't seem to get it.

Given the quantum mechanical view you are espousing - I just have to use some higher level spells via delay spell feat - for the same effect. From a rules and perspective - it is just a bit more restrictive as to how it is done, but just as "unbalancing" in their view.

Sorry I used your post as the quote - but KD said that was the "best interpretation" for the sake of "balance" when it wasn't.
 

Gromm

First Post
Ok. Everyone whos reading this thread do me a favor and email the sage about how timestop actually works.
Hell send him a link to this thread along with it.
I've already asked countless times, but if he gets 30-40 emails maybe, just maybe he'll actually do something. Or at the very least they may errata it in the future (how polymorph self was a huge issue but THIS and harm aren't I'll never understand).

thesage@wizards.com

I tend to agree with the LC rules as far as balance goes myself.
I've noticed that no real effort was (or is at this time) made by WotC to balance high level games. One spell completely ruins the game (be it harm or the worse time stop), and they could care less. In fact they actively ignore it.
Come up with a small issue on Poly Self and they rewrite the thing like 9 times. Shield is redone forever.
Someone needs to be in charge of official rule changes at WotC. One person who can just step in and change things that are terribly wrong. Instead they opt for the idea that the rules are too hard to fix and just leave things broken.
 

Tzarevitch

First Post
Magus_Jerel said:
Tzarevitch -

Caliban and KD find the "gobs of damage" concept unbalancing. They are attempting to manipulate the time stop spell in such a way as to prevent this. The only way to do it - is actually ban the spell, and a couple of Psionic powers as well - which are identical in concept. I have been trying to prove this point several different ways - but they didn't seem to get it.

Given the quantum mechanical view you are espousing - I just have to use some higher level spells via delay spell feat - for the same effect. From a rules and perspective - it is just a bit more restrictive as to how it is done, but just as "unbalancing" in their view.

Sorry I used your post as the quote - but KD said that was the "best interpretation" for the sake of "balance" when it wasn't.

No prob about using my my post. I just couldn't tell where the argument was going because it spread over so many other posts.

My goal, as you correctly pointed out, was to propose a more comprehensible spell descripion that is easier to adjudicate that doesn't depend on silly concepts such as spells hanging in the air. My reworked spell just requires the Delay Spell feat (or a spell with a duration) to do lots of extra damage.

For the record I agree with your argument that there is no reasonable interpretation of the spell that stops the gobs of damage problem. All the attempts to fix it so that it can't be used to do so much damage result in bizarre verbal contortions that are illogical and incomprehensible.

The spell's intent was obviously to permit gobs of damage. I am however, also a member of the camp that says that the spell IS unbalancing and this spell shouldn't have ever made it into 3e. It very quickly becomes the uberspell at 9th lvl and combat between high-level casters with the spell becomes an initiative test. The iniative looser dies horribly before he even knows what happened. (BTW, the psionic equivalent is worse because it grants 3d4 rounds of timestop.)

The big problem is that while the spell is fun and games for the PCs, they won't like it one bit when NPCs do it too because there is no way to defend against the timestop attack except VERY high SR. The PCs in my Dark Sun campaign are about 20th lvl and have just run afoul of a VERY high level cabal of psions. (Minimum level for membership is 20, the most powerful of them is 30th level and backed by an artifact. DS DMs know the adventure I am referring to.)

The psionic timestop equivalent grants 6 rounds of timestop on a slightly BELOW AVERAGE roll and can easily allow the psion to do about 90 points of damage assuming the character succeeds at ALL of his six saves. Note also this does not include any quickened or twinned or hasted powers (which can add about an additional 30 points of damage again assuming the PCs make all the saves). This is not fun for the players and it certainly isn't fun for the DM.

Oh and if the character has any protective spells running you lead off with a Maximized dispel (I think you can do that, otherwise use a normal Greater Dispel) to strip them off.

The Timestop spell sits at the top of my list of spells that were poorly thought out and the designers should've been out of their mind to convert to 3e like they did. (Haste, Harm, all of the Shadow magic series, Delay Poison and True Seeing also are high on my list of poorly thought out spells). Once my current game ends and I start my new Rokugan game, Timestop will get a not so fond sendoff and will never be seen again in any game I run.


Tzarevitch
 

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