I heard that there is a "fix" to Time Stop...

[Magus_Jerel]

aggeman - problem

under readied actions - it explicitly states that ONLY partial actions can be readied.

I readied the spell, and can ONLY take my partial action...
since I can't so much as blink an eye when it is not My turn - that is all I can do - NOT.
I get to prepare the spell components then and there.

Some other actions -

I want to drop My sword that the enemy just cast heat metal on to avoid taking damage. - I may do so immediately.

The enemy just set off a pit trap under me in combat. I may now cast feather fall to stop my fall...

I have an Anti Magic Field spell up - and I wish to end it so that I can recieve the benefits of a healing spell - I can do so.

I see someone attempting to cast a spell - and I would like to know what it is. I therefore make a spellcraft check to identify it.

I can shout out FIRE in a room in which combat is occuring.
I do this because I WANT TO.

I can sing a song while I am dueling the evil cleric -
because I am a bard... and I sing when I fight.

 

[KarinsDad]

No, you just have to make a consistent ruling on how time stop interacts with different types of effects. Then you see which type of effect the spell generates and follow the ruling.

One more try:

If the effect is a continous effect (the bonus or ability applies during the entire round), then it applies during every one of the "apparent" time stop rounds, because all of the time stop rounds are happening inside your normal round.

If the effect is something that applies a limited number of times during the round, then you cannot exceed that limit during the time stop rounds.

You mean like Regenerate Critical Wounds that cures 4 points PER round?

Or do you mean like Resist Elements that protects up to 12 points PER round?

There is no difference between these spells. They are both spells that give X amount of something per round. Hence, they should both work the same. Since you keep claiming that they work differently, I do not think it is me that is being inconsistent.

Regenerate Critical Wounds grants you fast healing for the entire round. You can use that fast healing for each of the time stop rounds. (Although I suppose you could interpret it as being limited to healing 4 points per "normal" round" instead of granting you the ability to heal for 4 points a round. However, I think it would heal you up on each of the "apparent" rounds as well.)

Resist Elements blocks 12 points of damage per round. Since it's limited to 12 per round, you can't exceed that limit with the extra time stop rounds (because they are happening inside 1 round of the resist element spell's duration).

See above.

The problem is that you view fast healing that a creature has as something that would kick in on every one of the “apparent rounds”. Hence, you think the spell which grants fast healing should do the same thing.

But, both of these (ability and spell) explicitly state “x points per round”, just like Resist Elements. Hence, the real problem here comes in with things like high level Wizard Trolls. Do they get the Regeneration once per “apparent round”, or once per “real round”?

Well, just like breathing while in Time Stop, your bodily functions should work the same, even if those functions derive from magical or supernatural powers. So, it would appear that a creature with Fast Healing or Regeneration should get it once per “apparent round”.

But, should is not the same as does. 5 points per round means 5 points per round.


Now, Fly is a different beast. Speed is handled per movement action, not per actual round (unless you are running and even that is debatable). Hence, you can use it every time you get a non-free action.


But, I think the bottom line here is the phrase “apparent round”.

If you really think about it, what are they saying?

You get 1D4+1 extra rounds. Period. You get them, nobody else does. You are moving so fast that in less than a millisecond, you get 12 to 30 seconds worth of time.

They are only apparent because only the caster can perceive them. The spell really is instantaneous.

The two reasons we are discussing this are:

1)The spell duration of any spell cast inside of these apparent rounds is not real. Things outside the caster do not perceive this speedup, only the caster does. Even his spells have not yet started (i.e. their duration has not yet started). The magic of a potion that he drinks has not yet started and does not kick in.

2) The Haste spell is unbalanced to begin with, so getting an extra partial action within each of these actions is unbalanced.

If you think about it, Time Stop should work with Haste just like it works with every other spell as per
Magus_Jerel’s interpretation or it should not work with any spell duration. It should either speed up all spells on the caster and suck away part of their duration, or Time Stop should be a single instant between ticks of the clock where no spells really work since they do not have enough “time” to work.

Your middle ground interpretation is more based on balance reasons than literal interpretation of the spell. You conveniently use the phrase apparent rounds to make it rounds when you want it to be rounds (Fly, Water Breathing) and to make it actions when you want it to be actions (Resist Elements).

For example, Speak With Dead. That is a continuous spell, but does it still work within Time Stop if cast beforehand? Does Spike Growth still do damage in the apparent rounds? Does Melf’s Acid Arrow continue to burn the caster within the Time Stop, or unlike burning oil, it is somehow neutralized? How about Repulsion? How many saves are required for it within the Time Stop? How about Invisibility Purge? As you walk past Invisible creatures, do they become visible for you, or does the magic not have time to work (remember, this spell affects the magic of others)? How about Vampiric Touch? Although it does not damage the creature until the end of the Time Stop, it is a continuous spell. Do you get the temporary hit points immediately within the Time Stop?

The problem is that you have to make rulings on each and every one of these and a boatload of others with your interpretation. Sometimes that’s easy, sometimes not.

On the other hand, with your interpretation, you would still be larger with Enlarge or Righteous Might or possibly a Polymorph spell.

But, that occurs with Magus_Jerel’s interpretation as well, so maybe with the exception of the balance issue of Haste, maybe his interpretation is best.

Haste is just so darn broken that Haste followed by Time Stop would basically be unstoppable.

You haven't responded to my point about haste. If haste doesn't prevent you from getting extra uses of other spells without reducing their duration, why should time stop?

Because they are different spells. Haste gives an extra partial action. Time Stop gives extra rounds. Two different things. Two different spells that give similar effects, but in a different manner.

Or, the simpler answer: It’s magic!


Btw, I think the stupid part of the spell is that fire and cold still damage you. That’s dumb. If I move my hand quickly over a lighter, I do not get burned. If you are moving faster than I can move my hand over the lighter, why would you get burned with Time Stop?

 

[KarinsDad]

Some other actions -

I want to drop My sword that the enemy just cast heat metal on to avoid taking damage. - I may do so immediately.

The enemy just set off a pit trap under me in combat. I may now cast feather fall to stop my fall...

I have an Anti Magic Field spell up - and I wish to end it so that I can recieve the benefits of a healing spell - I can do so.

I see someone attempting to cast a spell - and I would like to know what it is. I therefore make a spellcraft check to identify it.

I can shout out FIRE in a room in which combat is occuring.
I do this because I WANT TO.

I can sing a song while I am dueling the evil cleric -
because I am a bard... and I sing when I fight.

You are confusing continuous actions that in the game are constantly happening, and the mechanics.

With the mechanics, the only time you can do an action outside of your turn are:

1) AoO, in response to an opponent's action.
2) Readied Action (but you cannot change your action).
3) Feather Fall spell because that spell calls out that it is an exception to the rule (indirectly).

The problem is that outside of your turn, you are generally not allowed to react to what your opponent is doing unless his action states that you are allowed to react. Even then, it may or may not be an action on your part.

For example, if your opponent casts a spell within your reach, you can AoO him. If your opponent casts a spell defensively within your reach, you cannot AoO him.

Well, why not?

You should still be able to react to him casting the same according to your theory.

Well, you cannot. You can only react if the book says you can. This includes free actions and quickened spells.

Check out the definition of free action on page 278.

“Free actions consume a negligible amount of time, and one or more such actions can be performed in conjunction with actions of other types.”

You have yet to show a definition of free action that states that it can be performed outside the boundaries of another action.

Strike out 'usually' and you got it right!

Well, it depends on your interpretation. Free action states:

“You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally.”

This can be interpreted several ways (the English language being so crystal clear):


You can perform one or more free actions while taking another normal action.

Here, the normally refers to the action. This interpretation prevents you from taking free actions during an AoO.


You can normally perform one or more free actions while taking another action.

Here, the normally refers to perform. This interpretation allows you to take free actions during an AoO.


So, it all depends on how you interpret the free action sentence.

 

[AGGEMAM]

aggeman - problem

It is still AggemaM, not AggemaN.

under readied actions - it explicitly states that ONLY partial actions can be readied.

PHB, page 127. Partial actions are like standard actions except you can't do as much...

And still it is part of the exceptions noted on page 121.

I want to drop My sword that the enemy just cast heat metal on to avoid taking damage. - I may do so immediately.

No, whatever gave you that idea?

The enemy just set off a pit trap under me in combat. I may now cast feather fall to stop my fall...

No, actually you cast it while you fall, which is on your turn. Remember falling movement is still movement, and you can't move if it is not your turn. (I know that is illogical, but it is just the way it is).

I have an Anti Magic Field spell up - and I wish to end it so that I can recieve the benefits of a healing spell - I can do so.

Yes, Dismissing a spell is not an action (See page 121).

I see someone attempting to cast a spell - and I would like to know what it is. I therefore make a spellcraft check to identify it.

Again, not an action.

I can shout out FIRE in a room in which combat is occuring.
I do this because I WANT TO..

No.

I can sing a song while I am dueling the evil cleric -
because I am a bard... and I sing when I fight.

If it is your turn, yes. Otherwise, no!



But this all goes to show that you haven't understood the concept of the initiative order.

Basically, you are advocate of floating round as in the original D&D, 3rd Ed. has fixed rounds.


EDIT: For those of you who don't know. Falling movement is 150 feet the first round, and 300 feet per round after the first.

 

[Magus_Jerel]

pg 121 -
For almost all purposes there is no relevance to the end of a round or the beginning of a round.

Having read the text of the feather fall spell - I see nothing within it that requires it be your turn to cast it in any shape way or form, or for that matter be falling to cast it. (while you would not do so as a practical matter)

Under this interpretation of "unable to act until it is your turn" - you CANNOT cast feather fall if your opponent activates a pit trap and makes you fall in it, as the very ACTION of casting a quickened spell is IMPOSSIBLE unless it is "your turn".

There is no text that allows this condition to occur for feather fall - and not some other spell.

It is a question of can I or can I not cast ANY quickened spell when it is not "my turn".

If the answer is no, then I cannot use feather fall to stop myself from falling into the pit trap my enemy triggered.

If the answer is yes - then I can cast this quickened spell, just as I can any other - subject to the limit of one "quickened spell" per round.

 

[AGGEMAM]

You don't get it, do you!

You can't actually fall into that trap, when it is not your turn.



Here it is spelled out.

Enemys turn: activates trap door into a 20 feet deep pit. You miss your reflexes to avoid falling.

Your turn: You are falling 150 feet/round. You cast Feather Fall instantly to slow that to 60 feet/round. You touch ground safely, and cast Lightning Bolt at enemy (if you can see him, that is).

 

[Magus_Jerel]

uh huh...

And when I am hit by a sword or fireballed the damage doesn't take effect until the start of My next turn? - NOT...

If you can't take a particular type of "free action" at any time - guess what? they SAY so - see barbarian's rage.

We must remember:
D&D combat is NOT like chess, checkers, or Monopoly.

It is a wee bit more like MtG - where you can do SOME things on "an opponents turn" - just not everything you can do on yours.

You are still failing to point out where feather fall is some explicit exception to a "rule" somewhere that you cannot cast a quickened spell on/in an opponents turn. Mind you - feather fall is quickened by it's nature - which means that its casting doesn't count against you in the artificial "round" system.

 

[Caliban]

uh huh...

And when I am hit by a sword or fireballed the damage doesn't take effect until the start of My next turn? - NOT...

If you can't take a particular type of "free action" at any time - guess what? they SAY so - see barbarian's rage.

We must remember:
D&D combat is NOT like chess, checkers, or Monopoly.

Actually, yes it is. You take your turn and I take my turn. That's what a turn based combat is like.

It is a wee bit more like MtG - where you can do SOME things on "an opponents turn" - just not everything you can do on yours.

Wrong.

You are still failing to point out where feather fall is some explicit exception to a "rule" somewhere that you cannot cast a quickened spell on/in an opponents turn. Mind you - feather fall is quickened by it's nature - which means that its casting doesn't count against you in the artificial "round" system.

Regardless, you have failed to indicate where it explicitly states that you can perform a free action outside your turn.

We have indicated where it does explicitly state that you perform all your actions on your turn. Last I checked, a free action was still an action.

The feather fall spell description specifically states that you can cast it in time to prevent yourself or another person from hitting the ground. It's an exception to the normal rule on free actions only on your turn. And it also specifically states that it does count against the limit of 1 quickened spell per round.

Like it or not, you cannot cast spells on someone elses turn without a readied action (other than feather fall). This is not Magic the Gathering, and Quickened spells are not interrupts.

Check page 278 of the PHB, free action for more proof:

Free actions consume a negligible amount of tim, and one or more such actions can be performed in conjunction with actions of other types.

 

[Caliban]

You mean like Regenerate Critical Wounds that cures 4 points PER round?

Or do you mean like Resist Elements that protects up to 12 points PER round?

There is no difference between these spells. They are both spells that give X amount of something per round. Hence, they should both work the same. Since you keep claiming that they work differently, I do not think it is me that is being inconsistent.

There is a difference: The regenerate spell grants the character the ability to heal a certain amount of hit points per round. The character is experienceing extra rounds because of the time stop.

The resist elements spell itself is absorbing the damage, it's not granting the character the ability to resist the damage. The spell is limited to 12 per round, and all your time stop spells are taking place inside one round of the spells duration.

If you think about it, Time Stop should work with Haste just like it works with every other spell as per
Magus_Jerel’s interpretation or it should not work with any spell duration. It should either speed up all spells on the caster and suck away part of their duration, or Time Stop should be a single instant between ticks of the clock where no spells really work since they do not have enough “time” to work.

My point is that the time stop doesn't affect the duration of any precast spells because all the time stop rounds are happening inside one round of those spells duration. The spells are not speeded up, you are.

If the spell grants you an ability, you can use that ability each time you take an action, because you are speeded up. If the ability or advantage instead comes from the spell and is not imparted directly to you, then you can only use one rounds worth of that ability during your time stop rounds.

I'm sorry if that is too complicated for you, but sometimes poorly written 9th level spells are like that.

Because they are different spells. Haste gives an extra partial action. Time Stop gives extra rounds. Two different things. Two different spells that give similar effects, but in a different manner.

Or, the simpler answer: It’s magic!

It's inconsistent. They both speed you up, one just speeds you up more for a shorter period of time.

Btw, I think the stupid part of the spell is that fire and cold still damage you. That’s dumb. If I move my hand quickly over a lighter, I do not get burned. If you are moving faster than I can move my hand over the lighter, why would you get burned with Time Stop?

I agree. I think that at most you should take one round of fire/cold damage from outside sources, and probably not even that.

 

[Magus_Jerel]

Regardless, you have failed to indicate where it explicitly states that you can perform a free action outside your turn.

- Caliban

Reiteration:
Free action: free actions consume a negligeble amount of time. and one or more such actions can be performend in conjunction with other types.

I'll go a step farther - you can't perform a free action at all unless it is in conjunction with another action. Where does it say said action has to be an action that execute my free action must initiate? eh?

We have indicated where it does explicitly state that you perform all your actions on your turn.

-Caliban

yeah - and then I showed you the following from PHB 121:

Free action: ... their impact is so minor they are considered free...

(feather fall)
It's an exception to the normal rule on free actions only on your turn.

Like it or not, you cannot cast spells on someone elses turn without a readied action. Period.

1. The text in the first part DOES NOT EXIST in a fashion that is EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED. The text pointed out that it needs to be "my turn" to INITIATE My actions - thus the term initiative. It need not be My turn to REACT TO actions - in a passive or active fashion.

2. your insistence that feather fall is an exception relies on the assumption that the text EXPRESSLY exists - which it does not.

3. I have pointed out where a free action needed an explicit prohibition of being "taken at any time" namely that of a barbarians rage, Implying by presence that you CAN take a free action in response to another action - even one not your own, unless the action says otherwise.

4. You would go a step farther I think - saying that you cannot take any action on someone else's turn AT ALL. I am stating that you CAN - but you cannot INITIATE actions when it is "not your turn".

5. Logic Thread:
Casting a quickened spell is a free action
- table 8-4 pg 128 PHB

A free action can be taken in conjunction with another action
- Glossary definition; free action

This action NEED NOT BE your own action
- super duper quantum leap that seems impossible to Caliban et al.

Conclusion:
it is possible to use a quickened spell to interrupt you opponent's action - such as his casting a spell.