I heard that there is a "fix" to Time Stop...

[Caliban]

1. The text in the first part DOES NOT EXIST in a fashion that is EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED. The text pointed out that it needs to be "my turn" to INITIATE My actions - thus the term initiative. It need not be My turn to REACT TO actions - in a passive or active fashion.

A quickened spell is not a Reaction, it's an Action.

You can react on someone elses turn, but that's generally a Reflex save or an awareness check of some sort (i.e. Listen, Spot, etc.)

You can only Act on your own turn.

2. your insistence that feather fall is an exception relies on the assumption that the text EXPRESSLY exists - which it does not.

Yes it does. PHB glossary, page 278, free action.

3. I have pointed out where a free action needed an explicit prohibition of being "taken at any time" namely that of a barbarians rage, Implying by presence that you CAN take a free action in response to another action - even one not your own, unless the action says otherwise.

The barbarians rage is not an exception, it's just pointing out that it follows the rules of a free action. The PHB is often redundant to make sure people don't miss things like that.

4. You would go a step farther I think - saying that you cannot take any action on someone else's turn AT ALL. I am stating that you CAN - but you cannot INITIATE actions when it is "not your turn".

I'm not going farther, I'm following the stated rules. Trying to state that Quickened spells can be used to cast outside your turn is both ridiculous and overpowered. Wake up and smell the coffe.

5. Logic Thread:
Casting a quickened spell is a free action
- table 8-4 pg 128 PHB

True.

A free action can be taken in conjunction with another action
- Glossary definition; free action

True.

This action NEED NOT BE your own action
- super duper quantum leap that seems impossible to Caliban et al.

Yes, this is a quantum leap of logic. Nowhere in the rules does it state this, and in fact this is the exact opposite of the intent and letter of the rules.

"In conjunction with another action" very clearly means in conjunction with an action you are taking.

Chapter and verse please. Unless you can find somewhere in the core rules that explicitly states that you can use a free action during someone elses action, you are quite simply wrong.

Conclusion:
it is possible to use a quickened spell to interrupt you opponent's action - such as his casting a spell.

Conclusion: You can only use a Quickened spell on your own action.

 

[Magus_Jerel]

A quickened spell - in and of itself is an action.

It COULD be a reaction - and would have to be done "in response to" another situation in this case.

the text states "in conjunction with another action"...

this "clear implication" does not follow - as the words "that you initiate" are not present.

now - before you go off screaming that the whole idea is "over-powered" - think about it for a moment.

1. I have to be at LEAST 9th level to even THINK about quickening a spell at all - and even then only a first level spell.

2. Sure - a quickened spell can do a lot... but when you consider that a quickened "fireball"- uses a seventh level spell slot - on a par with limited wish - you would HOPE that they could do a lot.

3. The idea that you can only "act" on "your turn" at all is bogus. you can and do "take actions" - but you don't INITIATE them. That is why it is called initiative and not turn order.

4. If I COULD do this - it sure as heck would go a very long way to stopping much of the problem that is evident with LC ... yes?

In short - under the "interpretation" that I am "proposing" - to start something you have to have the initiative, but if you don't have the initiative you can only react. You can take a free action as a REACTION to something someone else does.


There is a poem with a very famous British Poem with a set of lines...

ours is not to reason why -
ours is but to do and die -
and so in went the six-hundred.

The mentality which you are taking - is identical to that of those six-hundred soldiers. There are times where what is NOT said is just as critical as what IS said. Sometimes rules are stated redundantly - but sometimes - the fact that there is no prohibition in and of itself is critical to the idea of "balancing the game".

You can get three spells a "round" as is - and since your opponent can't do anything to defend - guess what... three spells of that is sufficent to ERADICATE a PC's. The fact that people used time stop just made it easier - because you could get a whole lot more than three spells -
heck, using multiple time stops - you could cast every spell you had and then teleport away.

If you take this interpretation - in ANY campaign setting - the moment your wizard has Time Stop - the game is over. The wizard can just blast away all opposition before it can act.

Scry - teleport without error in - Time Stop... throw spells. by the time the time stop is over, said wizard is long gone. Countermeasures Possible? NONE WHATSOEVER.

The fact that quickened spell as a feat is around, and my view of acceptable use - has a tendency to prevent this.

 

[Caliban]

A quickened spell - in and of itself is an action.

Exactly. An you can only peform actions on your turn. Period, end of statement.

It COULD be a reaction - and would have to be done "in response to" another situation in this case.

No, it can't be a reaction. It's not defined as something that can be done as a reaction.

Nowhere in the rules does it state or imply that it can be done as a reaction.

the text states "in conjunction with another action"...

this "clear implication" does not follow - as the words "that you initiate" are not present.

Since it's an action and you can only do actions on your turn, yes it is implied.

...irrelevent stuff snipped...


3. The idea that you can only "act" on "your turn" at all is bogus. you can and do "take actions" - but you don't INITIATE them. That is why it is called initiative and not turn order.

It's not bogus, it's explicitly stated. You take all your actions on your turn. Period, end of arguement.

4. If I COULD do this - it sure as heck would go a very long way to stopping much of the problem that is evident with LC ... yes?

No, it would only make it worse.

In short - under the "interpretation" that I am "proposing" - to start something you have to have the initiative, but if you don't have the initiative you can only react. You can take a free action as a REACTION to something someone else does.

Show me exactly where it says you can do this.

I'm waiting...

Oh, you can't find it? I guess that's because it's not there.

There is a poem with a very famous British Poem with a set of lines...

ours is not to reason why -
ours is but to do and die -
and so in went the six-hundred.

The mentality which you are taking - is identical to that of those six-hundred soldiers. There are times where what is NOT said is just as critical as what IS said.

Will you listen to yourself? Trying to insult my intelligence or character doesn't help your position at all.

You aren't a prophet here to tell us what the unwritten rules say.

Sometimes rules are stated redundantly - but sometimes - the fact that there is no prohibition in and of itself is critical to the idea of "balancing the game".

Making up new rules (which is what you are trying to do) goes way beyond parsing what the rules do or do not say. If you want to add this ability to the Quicken spell feat, take it to the House Rules forum, because it isn't going to work in the real rules.

 

[KarinsDad]

My point is that the time stop doesn't affect the duration of any precast spells because all the time stop rounds are happening inside one round of those spells duration. The spells are not speeded up, you are.

If the spell grants you an ability, you can use that ability each time you take an action, because you are speeded up. If the ability or advantage instead comes from the spell and is not imparted directly to you, then you can only use one rounds worth of that ability during your time stop rounds.

I'm sorry if that is too complicated for you, but sometimes poorly written 9th level spells are like that.

Err, no need for jabs Caliban. I too sometimes get frustrated when someone doesn’t agree with me or appear to understand my point of view, but …

“Regenerate Critical Wounds: This spell is the same as regenerate light wounds except it grants fast healing at the rate of 4 hits points per round.”

“Regenerate Light Wounds: The subject heals 1 hit point per round of such damage until the spell ends …”

“Fast Healing: The creature regains hit points at an exceptionally fast rate, usually 1 or more hit points per round.”

I understood your subtle point. I just think that literally, it does not hold up. Nowhere in the game is there a difference between the x points per round of the fast healing ability and the x points per round of a Melf’s Acid Arrow or the x points per round of anything else. It does not matter that one is an ability and the other is a spell.

They both do something per round. You are stretching to indicate that there is a real difference between the two within the rules.

Either the rounds within Time Stop are real rounds and the only thing is that new magic cannot start yet (i.e. any spell duration on you gets lost, but at the same time, still works), or they are fake rounds where your real round and everything related to it is the original round (i.e. you get one x per round in the entire round for x per round effects), or you are totally outside the world of magic and can get no magical effects at all.

I really think this middle ground approach of yours is more difficult to adjudicate since it has several special rules to it. They may sound simple on the surface, but you still have to think about it when the Time Stopped Wizard walks into a Repulsion field. How many saves does he have to make to stay there while Time Stopped? One or a D4+1? Not quite so easy anymore, is it?

It's inconsistent. They both speed you up, one just speeds you up more for a shorter period of time.

It is only inconsistent if you consider them to be the exact same type of magic (and yes, I do understand that they are both transmutation spells).

But, since one adds a partial action and the other adds full blown rounds, to me it’s conceivable to consider them different types of magic. They have totally different effects, hence, they could affect other spells differently.

Haste could be considered to speed you up, but not affect time at all (from your point of view). In other words, you are affected, time is not.

Time Stop could be considered to not speed you up at all, but rather give you more time at the same speed (from your point of view). In other words, you are not affected (directly), you are just given more time.

One strong argument for why this is the case is that Haste increases your jumping distance and Time Stop does not.

So, if faced with a pit that is just beyond your ability to jump, Haste might get you over it. Time Stop will not. It does not matter how much faster you are Time Stopped, you still attempt to jump over the pit and you still end up in it. You cannot assume that gravity works differently while Time Stopped.

So, Haste is like Expeditious Retreat in that you are moving quicker (and ER also increases your jumping ability). Time Stop is more like you step out of time, into another dimension of time do a bunch of stuff, and then step back in. But, the duration of any of your magic does not go out there with you.

 

[Caliban]

Err, no need for jabs Caliban. I too sometimes get frustrated when someone doesn’t agree with me or appear to understand my point of view, but …

I apologize KD, I didn't phrase that well. I meant to say that it may be more complicated than you like, not more complicated than you can handle.

I said I could see the fast healing thing either way. If you consider the spell to be doing the healing, and limited to healing a certain amount per round, then being time stopped wouldn't help. If you think the spell temporarily imbues the PC with the fast healing ability, then I think it would heal more while you are in time stop. I really don't think this is an unreasonable effect of a 9th level spell.

understood your subtle point. I just think that literally, it does not hold up. Nowhere in the game is there a difference between the x points per round of the fast healing ability and the x points per round of a Melf’s Acid Arrow or the x points per round of anything else. It does not matter that one is an ability and the other is a spell.

They both do something per round. You are stretching to indicate that there is a real difference between the two within the rules.

Fine, then when you run it they wouldn't be able to get any extra points from them during the time stop. However, I believe that in the case of time stop there is a difference in how certain effects apply. In the absence of any real clarification on the spell from WOTC, I will adjudicate it as I see best.

Either the rounds within Time Stop are real rounds and the only thing is that new magic cannot start yet (i.e. any spell duration on you gets lost, but at the same time, still works), or they are fake rounds where your real round and everything related to it is the original round (i.e. you get one x per round in the entire round for x per round effects), or you are totally outside the world of magic and can get no magical effects at all.

Sorry KD, I don't accept this either/or thinking of yours. I have no problem with 9th level spells having subtle and complicated effects, and I think that time stop is one of those spells.

I really think this middle ground approach of yours is more difficult to adjudicate since it has several special rules to it.

I'm not saying it's not more difficult to adjudicate. But it's a 9th level spell that's poorly worded. It requires careful adjudication to keep it from being abused and at the same time not screw over the PC just for casting it. Casting a 9th level spell is supposed to help you, not make you suddenly fall from the air or start drowning or temporarily negate all your own defenses. I don't want to completely neuter the spell.

They may sound simple on the surface, but you still have to think about it when the Time Stopped Wizard walks into a Repulsion field. How many saves does he have to make to stay there while Time Stopped? One or a D4+1? Not quite so easy anymore, is it?

Actually, that one's pretty easy. You only make one save, whether or not you are time stopped. If you make the initial save the repulsion field doesn't affect you, if you fail it you can't enter the field until the repulsion spell ends.

It is only inconsistent if you consider them to be the exact same type of magic (and yes, I do understand that they are both transmutation spells).

But, since one adds a partial action and the other adds full blown rounds, to me it’s conceivable to consider them different types of magic. They have totally different effects, hence, they could affect other spells differently.

I disagree that they are totally different effects. One grants an extra partial action and one grants several rounds worth of actions. Time Stop seems like a much higher level version of haste to me.

Haste could be considered to speed you up, but not affect time at all (from your point of view). In other words, you are affected, time is not.

Time Stop could be considered to not speed you up at all, but rather give you more time at the same speed (from your point of view). In other words, you are not affected (directly), you are just given more time.

One strong argument for why this is the case is that Haste increases your jumping distance and Time Stop does not.

I think this is more of them totally rewriting haste for 3rd edition and just pasting most of the text from the previous version of time stop. I don't recall haste letting you jump farther in previous editions.

 

[KarinsDad]

Actually, that one's pretty easy. You only make one save, whether or not you are time stopped. If you make the initial save the repulsion field doesn't affect you, if you fail it you can't enter the field until the repulsion spell ends.

Yeah, that was a fairly stupid example on my part. I was thinking that Repulsion gave a save once per round and didn’t look it up.

Grease is a better example.

Shouldn’t the area be slippery for every set of movement within the Time Stop?

Well, Grease does not affect the abilities of the Time Stopped caster. It is an external spell. Even more external than Resist Elements which at least affects the caster directly.

What about Stinking Cloud? Well, Time Stop explicitly says that harmful gas affects you normally, but it does not say whether it affects you for 1 round or 1D4+1 rounds.

How about the Poison spell or normal poison? Is this affecting your ability and does it occur quicker? One minute minus 1D4-1 rounds later? Or, are you basically immune to the poison in your system until you come back out?

Etc.

The point is that it is a bit of a pain in the butt to attempt to consistently adjudicate these with your ruling. You have to stop and think (at least I do) on every scenario and figure it out. It’s much easier and consistent if you go to one extreme or the other. The extra rounds are real, or the extra rounds are illusory. Everything affects you as if it was real rounds and durations are decreased, or nothing affects you (with the possible exception of fire, cold, gas that they call out) and the only real time is outside of the time bubble, hence, no duration decreases.

Both of these are a piece of cake to adjudicate (at least, I cannot think of a problem with them).

I think this is more of them totally rewriting haste for 3rd edition and just pasting most of the text from the previous version of time stop. I don't recall haste letting you jump farther in previous editions.

Hmmm.

Sounds like an evasion and not very pertinent to the discussion.

Both Expeditious Retreat and Haste speed up the character and increase his movement (directly and indirectly respectively) and increase his jump rate. Both ER and Haste allow you to Bull Rush an opponent or affect him in other ways.

Time Stop indirectly increases the movement, but does not increase the jump rate at all. Time Stop does not allow you to Bull Rush an opponent or affect him in any other way.

The first two seem like they actually move the character faster.

The last one seems like it does not move the character any faster, rather it takes him out of our time and puts him into a little time bubble where everything around him effectively stops.

The effects are totally different. Can we at least agree to that?

Some of the results (one extra partial action per round and 1D4+1 extra apparent rounds) are similar.

But, when carefully examined, Haste and Time Stop seem like totally different magical effects.

They flat out do two different things and do not really seem related in any way except the extra actions and even those are different.

 

[Forrester]

Fuel to the fire . . .

The whole Time-Stop discussion is far too tedious for me to get involved in, but on the subject of free actions during your opponent's turn, I may have stumbled upon another exception.

The "Reflection" ability for shields (p. 181).

"Once per day as a free action, it can be called on to reflect a spell back at its caster exactly like the Spell Turning spell."

My guess is that they meant that as the wearer of the shield is being targeted by a spell, he can react (in Feather-Fall like fashion) to bounce the spell back to the caster.

I doubt very much they intended the effect to be that the wearer takes an action to bounce the NEXT spell cast at him -- else they'd probably have made it a standard action to activate. Just a hunch.

Another two cents -- I tend to allow those who were just ambushed & knocked below 0hp (but not below -9) to give a shout/scream before they go unconscious, even though it's not their action. I basically allow them a Fort save (DC10 or 15 + damage) to pull it off. And allow a called shot to hit someone in a sensitive spot (lungs, for instance) to stifle the scream.

Definitely a Rule 0, but it seems unrealistic that a non-surprised guard that happens to be "flat-footed" and lose initiative should automatically be denied a dying warning to his copatriots .

 

[Caliban]

Both Expeditious Retreat and Haste speed up the character and increase his movement (directly and indirectly respectively) and increase his jump rate. Both ER and Haste allow you to Bull Rush an opponent or affect him in other ways.

Time Stop indirectly increases the movement, but does not increase the jump rate at all. Time Stop does not allow you to Bull Rush an opponent or affect him in any other way.

The first two seem like they actually move the character faster.

The last one seems like it does not move the character any faster, rather it takes him out of our time and puts him into a little time bubble where everything around him effectively stops.

The effects are totally different. Can we at least agree to that?

Since the second line of the time stop spell description states "in fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speed", I have to believe that time stop does indeed make the character move faster.

The x1.5 jump thing is just an inconsistancy, of which there are several in D&D, and always have been.

Some of the results (one extra partial action per round and 1D4+1 extra apparent rounds) are similar.

But, when carefully examined, Haste and Time Stop seem like totally different magical effects.

They flat out do two different things and do not really seem related in any way except the extra actions and even those are different.

I'm afraid I have to disagree. Both spells explicitly state that the character is sped up, and give one or more extra actions as a result. Time stop is just a more extreme form. And at 17th level, I don't think that your ability to jump is really going to be relevent if you can cast time stop. If you need to get somewhere you can fly or dimension door there. I think they simply didn't think about a 17th level wizard trying to do a running broad jump after casting time stop, because realistically, he will never need to.

In this instance, I think you are trying to oversimplify time stop, and severely curtailing the utility of a 9th level spell as a result.

I'm not sure if there is any point in discussing it further, as we both have our own view about what the spell is really doing, and are adjudicating it based on that. Both of our interpretations go beyond what is stated in the spell description (although both of them are based on it). They have to, to keep the spell from being abused. Until WOTC finally puts out some real errata on the spell, I don't think we will agree on the details of how to adjudicate it, because we have different theories about how the magic is working.

Speaking from a strict game mechanic view point, I am satisfied that haste doesn't grant any extra actions within the time stop, and that was my main concern (because I see that as the game breaking abuse). Everything else is just arguing details.

 

[hong]

See, if you just banned all 9th level spells, you wouldn't have any of these problems.


Hong "you think I'm joking, don't you?" Ooi

 

[Wolfen Priest]

haste within time stop

I look at it this way.

Time stop (note the name: time STOP) speeds the caster up infinitely. And that is not an exaggeration!

Haste speeds the caster up a tiny little bit compared to infinity.

So you are already moving at an INFINITELY FAST PACE with time stop. Let's say haste moves you only .5 times faster that normal (which is really being generous).

So, infinity plus .5 is still just infinity. In fact, it's utterly laughable to even try to assume that adding .5 to infinity would make ANY DIFFERENCE at all!

Therefore, haste does not work within a time stop, because you are already moving infinitely fast... I can't stress that enough... you are moving INFINITELY fast. Thus, moving just a little bit faster than that will not actually make any difference. Just think about it!