I will Living Greyhawk no more!

[Elder-Basilisk]

IMO Birthday Bash is just about the worst LG module there is, so I wouldn't judge the campaign by that. Like all campaigns I've ever been a part of (home campaigns included), it has it's good moments and its bad moments but I think that the good ones outweigh the bad at the moment (by quite a bit actually). (Of course, as one of the writers for the campaign (Inquisition (Pale Regional) and an upcoming Ratik scenario), I may be somewhat biased).

Dwarf,

I had the exact same type of experience with LG's Birthday Bash and LC's Glory of the Game. They were abysmally written, and only meant to either lead the characters around by the nose (BBash) or not anticipate the characters losing the game(Glory). I swore off RPGA for almost a year.

Now, I'm getting into some of the "other worlds", such as Living Kalamar, Dragonstar, and Spycraft. I'm reactivating myself at Origins this year to give it another go. Maybe you could try some of the other settings. Hope something works out for you.

Carp

Edit: Fixed an apostrophe.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

As one of the other posters pointed out, the widely varying difficulty of encounters is partly an artifact of the APL system. OTOH, CRs are somewhat misleading in Living Games (especially Living Greyhawk since the tables are more likely to be full (6 players) than in other Living Campaigns). When I'm writing a mod, I expect a party of 5 or 6 characters, at least half of whom are the level of the APL. I would expect an APL 2 table to have at least three second level characters--possibly a fourth level character (although that will almost always make the module easy).

When I'm playing, I consider that as well. I'm a lot more careful playing APL 10 with a party of 2 10th levels, 1 9th levels, an 8th level and a 4th level cohort than I would be with four tenth level characters, a 9th level character, and a 9th level cohort. (Both of which actually happened recently).

When you consider that the range of parties that could conceivably play a module also included well constructed, to "what were you thinking?!?" (this class combo looked good at level 4) type characters, the task of balancing encounters is very difficult and at least partially needs to take place at the con organization or table level where players say "playing this mod with this party would be suicide, how can we rearrange this to make it work." That happens pretty much automatically in home games (and is just as necessary if the game is using published materials) but takes a bit of thought on the part of players in a Living Campaign setting.

As mentioned, LG is really a mixed bag.

What do people think about this: A large air elemental against a party of 1st level characters? Sure, it is a CR 5 creature but I don't see how any party of first level characters could ever defeat such a monster. Lots of caveats here since I have not seen the module itself. Maybe we could have avoided the encounter, maybe it was was expected that we would run away.

The only reason the group that I played in survived is that the DM thought it was stupid also and REALLY softballed the encounter. That kind of play really is unsatisfying to me.

later,
Ysgarran.

 

[Arksorn]

I have just started playing Living Greyhawk and I am having a good time. I DM about as often as I play. In the 4 modules I have played I ran across the best DM I have ever had in 20 years of D&D. So there are good ones out there.

Party make up is as important as in any game, if not more so. It is hard to blame the module writer if a party that consists only of fighters and rogues cannot handle an adventure. Players should make sure they have all the bases covered. I made up one character of every class so I could fill the gaps in a party. It seems the majority of players play fighters and rogues so my wizard and my cleric are the only characters of mine that have seen any action.

That being said, I have seen some terribly powerful monsters for the APL. I have also seen some terribly bad play. Too many times I have seen parties charge powerful monsters that had no way of harming them at range. Use missile weapons and keep backing up! Only resort to melee combat where the thing can hurt you as a last resort!

 

[DWARF]

That's part of the problem. The twinky wood elf archer with a Dex of 20 just snipes everything in those modules. It seems like a good portion of them "balance" things by putting wizards or fighters on high ground, or on boats slowly approaching, as a way to slow down the "quick-kill" that melee characters are designed for.

So, instead, our archer get's to use his power almost constantly. Normal combat? Archer rules. Ranged combat? Archer rules. Sea combat? Archer rules. Air combat? Archer rules.

They only need me to heal them when they're hurt. And when I ask them to recite a prayer to Wee Jas, or show me and the Ruby Goddess respect, they scoff and look at me like a cure light wounds dispenser that isn't doing it's job.

 

[Endur]

There are a lot of people who have had the same exact experience in RPGA games.

The vote for the best roleplayers doesn't work the way it was meant to. It was supposed to be for roleplaying, but half of the votes I have seen were for whoever made you laugh and whoever didn't piss you off.

Also, the perception of some players that CLERIC = MEDIC is a royal pain.

The good part of LG is that if your GM sucks, you can get a new GM and you don't have to start a new character at 1st level (you keep everything you've gained so far). Portable characters is cool.

The bad part of LG is that a Good GM can't take you into a fantastic campaign. Instead, he has to present the materials that are written into a generic adventure. Some of the adventures are very good, some are mediocre, and some are parinfully bad. Since these adventures are intended for anyone to play, there are going to be times when a particular adventure is just not appropriate material for a particular character or party.

Also, the typical adventures tend to be very linear. Party is hired to retrieve item A, Party fights a couple of combats, Party brings item back, Adventure over.

(And I play in the LG region with the most highly rated adventures according to the census the LG coordinators did).

**
Then, at the end, their the oh so winderful "vote for the best players" contest, where I lose out because, after everyone else votes for the shortcut, my cleric throws down his pole and says he won't help them in such madness. Yup, I got dinged for roleplaying. The whole night, everyone was trying their best to beat the module, while I futily tried to engaged anyone in any real roleplaying.

So that's it. No more Living Greyhawk for me. I'm tired of Xp being tied to monsters killed. I'm tired of getting voted as a bad player because I didn't twink my death cleric and do all I could to beat the game within it's rules. I'm tired of everyone treating my like a "Cure Light Wounds" dispensor. I'm tired of every lowly kobold and dirty barge captain beating the DC:13 on my spells.

Anyone have any thoughts, advice please?

 

[Endur]

The mailing list is definitely the place to find events in Geoff.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/living-geoff/

Remember, a static web site requires someone to spend a lot of time, effort, love, and tears to maintain. A mailing list just requires an email to update information.

Tom

Disorganization is a huge problem.

I live in the region of Geoff. Until recently going to the Geoff website yielded no new information. The site calendar has not been updated since June of last year.

How is someone supposed to figure out where local conventions sponsoring RPGA events are going to happen if your local region is not even bothering to put up an update?

Going to the RPGA website and looking for a calendar of events yields hundreds of events. How do you know which one of those is local? Clicking on each one individually? That is a huge waste of time. I clicked on three events that caught my attention. On in Hawaii, one in Vermont and one in Illinois... Like I said before there are hundreds of events. I'm not spending several hours clicking on events just to find a local one.

If the regional leadership is not providing updates and the national leadership doesn't have an organized calendar, how in the hell do you find out that there is a convention 3 weeks from now that will sponsor RPGA play for your region?

It leads to great deals of unnecessary frustration.

 

[Angcuru]

Then why don't you try the all-new...actually...rather smelly and decomposed...UNDEAD GREYHAWK modules? Currently available at your local non-existant hobby shop down the street from the Wendy's that isn't really there.

 

[Outlaw]

I don't know much about the adventure quality in the Duchy of Urnst, but I do know that most of the Core adventures are pretty good. you may want to try a few of those.

I would have to disagree. I have yet to play a core module that has the depth and flavor that my regional modules have. I was lucky enough to fall into a region that matched my style of play and offered the kind of flavor I wanted.

With the constant rules changes, though, I don't think any region is what it used to be. I know my favorite modules are still from the first year. I will only play a core module if I have nothing else to play. "What, we want to sail across the Nyr Dyv and infiltrate a city home to tens of thousands of orcs? Suuuurrreee!"

I don't think so. It's poor attention by the people in charge that don't keep an eye on the common sense meter. And I make that mistake from time to time. When you're looking at the thing from the start, sometimes a change seems to be an improvement and then after the fact you say "what am I thinking!"

I approved a module where the PCs were raiding a crypt. Someone brought that to my attention and I smacked myself. Usually I'm the first person to point out to authors that they're creating a situation where paladins and perhaps other good aligned PCs would refuse to go to. It's always a delicate balance.

As for a bad experience in LG, year 2 definitely threw a wrench in the gears. The focus then and still now but not to the same degree, is about winning combat and jumping through hoops to get max XP. When playing LG the first question I always here is, What APL are we playing at? I miss just sitting down and playing. (And I have five LG characters, from four different regions, just so we're clear on that).

Getting to run Living Kalamar and playing campaigns like Living Jungle and Living Spycraft has really rekindled my interest in Living campaigns. Playing Greyhawk isn't the priority for me that it was a year ago.

 

[Outlaw]

You're supposed to be heroes.

The LG campaign documents specify that the campaign with fopcus on heroics and helping people because it is "right" not doing things for pay.

If you know that going in you have little reason to complain.

Perhaps the most recent incarnation of the campaign documentation finally says this (as it has been debated ad nauseum for two years), but it originally started as a misconception between Erik Mona and another campaign staff member.

Erik even came out and said that he never planned to write the campaign requiring you to be heroes. This is more a decision of the region than it is the overall campaign.

True story: I went to Illinois from Missouri (Verbobonc from Dyvers) as part of a two-table, all-weekend Verbobonc fest. First module, opening plot hook and both tables do the exact same thing: "How much are we getting paid?" The judges looked on in horror because in Verbobonc, they go the hero route. If you ask for pay the module is over. Coming from a region where many of the PCs actually carry contracts, it was a moment where they had to pause and explain the region to us better.

In my region, I'm a certed cat burglar. We're the second largest city in the known world, the two largest temples in the city are Zilchus and Xerbo (gods of commerce) and the city's strings are pulled by an alliance of nine different criminal organizations.

Hero? Hero? The one time I played a hero I got torn apart and massacred (literally) by a troll. No my friend, if you come to my city, we have back-alley pit fighting that leads to dead slaves and you have to bribe the guards to go adventure out in the forest.

Of course, if you go across the river, yes, they are all about being heros. Each region for itself. But you should never take such a lame plot hook as a beggar asking for help because you're a hero. Even in a heroic campaign, that's just pushing thin the suspension of disbelief. How many beggars aren't asking for help? Where's the line of heroism drawn?

(He he he, I actually rescued a wheel-makers daughter, but wouldn't give her back when I found out there wasn't a reward. That was good for a laugh. Of course the guy got the kid back eventually, but it was worth a shot. )


On a side note, it's obvious that I don't like having charaters forced into the role of hero, so I had to suffer on the matter long and hard when thinking about the direction for Living Kalamar. We've made the announcement, and it will be published in the first and forthcoming campaign books that are released on PDF starting this September. Kalamar is a hero/antihero campaign. The situation in which the PCs find themselves lends itself poorly to mercenary types, and although there is usually reward, the call to action is usually in an effort to maintain the stability of the principality in some way.

 

[Outlaw]

Re: Re: I will Living Greyhawk no more!

There are a lot of people who have had the same exact experience in RPGA games.

Also, the perception of some players that CLERIC = MEDIC is a royal pain.

I lurk on a lot of the LG boards, and there are some regions that are just scary in the way the people act. The abuse, antagonism and meanness that comes about because they want to "win" seems antithetical to role playing at all. It was with horror, one time, that a player publicly petitioned his triad to ban a player whose cleric was casting spells during combat, rather than saving them for post-combat healing.

Now let me preface this, if your party members are dying and you have the ability to heal them and don't, you're a ass. This happened to me and my table where everyone was dying except the sor/wiz who was fighting with his longspear and the ranger who was hiding in the previous room. Knowing that half the party had wands of cure light wounds, he still wouldn't help us or the sor/wiz (who was in melee combat!) for no reason. That is poor form in my opinion. But a cleric who is casting spells (and thus contributing to the adventure as a whole) being forcefully relegated to a medic status makes me sick.

I don't play good aligned clerics for that reason. I channel negative energy and when I'm pushed in that direction, I tell the abusive player just how many cure spells I have to offer and that I can't provide any more. They'll say, "just convert some" and I respond that "I don't have that ability"

Depending on where you go, cooperation and teamwork become more difficult. One of my primary reasons of not moving from St. Louis to Philly was because a lot of the role players there scare me (not the only reason of course, but if I'm going to lose my favorite hobby, is it worth it?).