Immortals Handbook - Ascension Discussion

[S'mon]

Howdy - Krust here!

No, i haven't been arguing for spellcaster for awhile, it's the item boosted ability scores remaining intact that i disagree on.

I agree that item boosted ability scores are useful bordering on necessary, but not for dealing with Abrogate, I think thats where we differ.

I just thought it was something right up your ally, as it has a a rather nice system when it comes to mortal and immortal interaction.

From my experience Rifts has some of the worst mechanics of any RPG. But I must admit I totally love the setting.

 

[S'mon]

Hello - Krust here.

That's good to know. It'll help when I get around to restatting the Epic Bestiary's angels to be more compliant with Ascension, after all my other plans with Ascension, of course.

Re-statting the angels? Adding portfolios do you mean? Can't think of anything else they really need.

Would this be the official rule on how "permanent" Divine Immensity works, by the way?

It carries as much officialdom as I can muster.

Wait, so an immortal with Swarm Shape can turn it on/off at will? As a standard, move, swift, or free action?

Each part of the swarm 'is' the deity, so obviously it can assume whatever shape (within certain parameters).

And I think it would make more sense for the dispersed swarm to fill up a cube with the same space as the immortal.

It would probably fill a cube one size category larger than the original immortal when dispersed.

I can't imagine that all of the insects that are packed together to form a 240-foot tall Titanic sidereal would only fill up a 10-foot cube when dispersed. We can also have enormous swarms of nanites that count as only one creature this way too.

A 240 foot tall Titanic Immortal would probably fill a 400 foot (or thereabouts) Cube, making it Macro-Fine.

 

[S'mon]

Hello again!

I just noticed that there's a huge problem with save DCs: there's too big a gap between save DCs and save bonuses once you bring in greater deities. Let's take a lesser deity with 55 outsider HD (ECL 115) and 35 in all of his ability scores, and a greater deity with 80 outsider HD (ECL 160) and 55 in all of his ability scores. Assume that neither has any abilities or artifacts that boost save bonuses or save DCs, because if one side has them, then the other side should have them as well, so we might as well make them both lack any save bonus or save DC boosters. Recall that the base save bonuses for an immortal with pure outsider HD are equal to 2 + 1/2 Hit Dice + relevant ability score modifier + divine rank, and that the base save DCs for an immortal are equal to 10 + 1/2 Hit Dice + relevant ability score modifier + divine rank. Thus, our lesser deity has base save bonuses equal to 2 + 27 + 12 + 12 = +53, while our greater deity has save DCs equal to 10 + 40 + 22 + 16 = DC 88. The lesser deity will only make those saves on natural 20s, and since there's nothing in the core books that can make you immune to dazing (the official FAQ clarifies that Freedom of Movement doesn't prevent you from being dazed or stunned), the lesser deity is doomed to be stuck in a dazelock by the greater deity switching his divine aura to daze mode. And yet, by the encounter level system outlined here (www.immortalshandbook.com/sermon3.htm) and here (www.immortalshandbook.com/freestuff18.htm), an ECL 160 creature is only an EL +3 encounter for a group of four ECL 115 PCs.

Is there any quick fix to this dilemma? For that matter, on a minor note, is there any way to fix Infinite Deflection and Exceptional Deflection, which make you immune to all ranged attacks and ranged touch attacks, other than by giving every immortal Nullification? Legendary Archer doesn't help, because it still doesn't help ranged touch attacks.

The problem is the +1/2 HD mechanic part of the DC which I have since scrapped.

All immortal DCs should be 20 + Ability Score + Divine Rank, as opposed to 10 + 1/2 HD + Ability Score + Divine Rank.

Its not an ideal situation but I think it is the lesser of two evils in this case.

 

[EarthSeraphEdna]

On DCs/Daze: Mindblank should block dazing. (It lists blocking mind affecting, and you could argue daze from a divine aura falls in there)

Then it should be stated that the divine aura effects that force Will saves are mind-affecting effects

An epic spell could render you immune.

I'm trying to avoid custom epic spells for the IHB, because it always ends up in a situation where the mage makes a spell to counteract everything and applies lots and lots of easy-to-overcome mitigating factors. It'll be better to restrict epic spells to just the premade ones in the Epic Level Handbook.

I am sure there are other spells from various sourcebooks and class features that would also likewise protect you.

I'm also trying to avoid using sourcebooks outside of the core books, the Expanded Psionics Handbook, the Epic Bestiary, and Ascension. Game balance is already about to snap with just those books, and there are a bazillion feats and abilities in Ascension alone. Adding more books will just serve to make things more convoluted.

On Deflection: Seeking-Shot (Divine Power I believe) makes the first ranged attack each round work like magic missile (IE Unerring, no roll to hit) and calls out that a foe that has the ability to deflect the attack normally cannot deflect an attack made with seeking-shot. (Although you need to roll to hit normally in this case) I bring up Seeking-Shot because it just says 'shot', not ranged attack, or missile attack, and this probably needs to be corrected. It has archery-style prerequisites, so it seems like it was intended to work with bows/crossbows, but could be argued to equally work with rays, thrown weapons, etc because it doesn't specific any game terminology about what it effects.

The description of Seeking Shot gets abruptly cut off though. Is it supposed to cancel out Deflect Arrows, and can it work with ranged touch attacks (such as the Beam variety of [Effect] abilities)? If not, then how is an immortal supposed to land a Beam on an enemy immortal with Exceptional Deflection and Infinite Deflection, other than by using Abrogate or Nullification just to negate these one or both of these two feats?

 

[EarthSeraphEdna]

The problem is the +1/2 HD mechanic part of the DC which I have since scrapped.

All immortal DCs should be 20 + Ability Score + Divine Rank, as opposed to 10 + 1/2 HD + Ability Score + Divine Rank.

Its not an ideal situation but I think it is the lesser of two evils in this case.

Wait, wait, wait, doesn't that push it straight to the other end of the extreme spectrum, making immortals succeed at saving throws 95% of the time? A lesser deity with 55 HD (ECL 95) and 35 in all of his ability scores will have a save bonus of +47, but save DCs of only DC 40. Something's wrong there.

Also, how should the save DCs for spells be handled? As it is, an empowered x20 meteor swarm (a 49th-level spell) still has a save DC of only 19 + relevant ability score modifier, which is very low, needless to say. Perhaps Heighten Spell should be built-in for all spells modified by Automatic Metamagic Capacity, so an empowered x20 meteor swarm is automatically heightened to 49th-level?

 

[Farealmer3]

I agree that item boosted ability scores are useful bordering on necessary, but not for dealing with Abrogate, I think thats where we differ.

So again i ask, why does ability scores from items remain intact? What makes them so superior to divine power that items are unaffected where divine(or better) powers are?

But I must admit I totally love the setting.

Thats what i meant.

 

[EarthSeraphEdna]

I've noticed that in the book, there are two different kinds of DCs that are arbitrarily set for different abilities: (DC 10 + 1/2 Hit Dice + relevant ability score modifier + divine rank), and (DC 20 + relevant ability score modifier + divine rank). Negative Energy [Effect], for example, uses the former, whereas the disintegration aspect of Atomic [Effect] uses the latter. The book really needs some more editing. I hope you don't mind, U_K, but I've already removed the watermark on my PDF, and I've already begun to edit things that are obviously errors. Perhaps I can send it to you when I'm done?

Also, about the Third Eye divine ability: if you use it to fire off a Beam (from an [Effect] ability) as a free action and then use a Hand as a standard action, do the Beam and the Hand each get their full damage, or is the damage for each halved? I'm thinking that the damage should be halved, because if both the Beam and the Hand get their full damage, then that would make Third Eye effectively double the overall effectiveness of an [Effect] ability.

Oh, and what's stopping an immortal from using his daily Wish spell-like abilities to gain permanent inherent bonuses on all of his ability scores? A demi-deity has 6 free Wishes per day, so over the course of just 6 days, he can grant himself a +5 inherent bonus to all of his ability scores.

 

[WarDragon]

So again i ask, why does ability scores from items remain intact? What makes them so superior to divine power that items are unaffected where divine(or better) powers are?

Not superior. Just different. Abrogate affects the basic score, and then the items add onto that.

Also keep in mind, items can be sundered and disarmed far more easily than abilities can be Abrogated.

 

[dante58701]

Positive Energy [Effect]...

Why does it inflict damage upon any target?

Shouldn't it heal the living, harm the undead, and really harm sunlight vulnerable undead?

Or is Positive Energy [Effect] disruptive positive energy?

Or is Positive Energy [Effect] partly a LIGHT [Effect]?

Maybe Positive Energy [Effect] is a disruptive positive energy blast that radiates pure light?

As is it strikes me as more of a Radiance [Effect].

I've seen examples of positive energy damage, but it always seems to effect undead.

 

[dante58701]

Oh, and what's stopping an immortal from using his daily Wish spell-like abilities to gain permanent inherent bonuses on all of his ability scores? A demi-deity has 6 free Wishes per day, so over the course of just 6 days, he can grant himself a +6 inherent bonus to all of his ability scores.

You're technically limited to +5, unless they came up with something new that I've yet to see.

Aside from that, nothing really, but at the point you reach demi-deity, +5 is such a petty little number that it's like throwing minnows to a great white.