Immortals Handbook - Ascension Discussion

[historian]

For what it's worth U_K did name seven or eight Metempiric abilities several years back, i.e. Metamerism.

Here's a link:

http://www.enworld.org/archive/index.php/t-75540-p-2.html

 

[Slaadmaster]

Howdy Slaadmaster!



The next book for release will probably be the Gods portion of Gods & Monsters. Or at least I'll concentrate on finishing that off as soon as I get the Ascension art completed.

If I wait until I have the monsters portion ready I'll be here til next year, so better releasing things in smaller chunks.



There are lots of cool characters and monsters out there, and don't forget to have a look in the "Design an Epic Monster Competition" thread.

Thanks U_K, I'll check that out! Also, out of curiosity, where would people place the named overgods of the various campaign settings such as Ao (of the Forgotten Realms) and the High God (of Dragonlance). I was thinking that, since they each have total power in -and only in- their crystal sphere, that Elder One might be appropriate as a crystal sphere seems to be the closest to a 'layer' of the Material Plane that exists. However, I'm unsure how powerful, relatively speaking, that is compared to how they have been depicted (for example Ao seems to be capable of stripping his deities of their divinity - which might indicate greater power). I remember seeing a thread on DiceFreaks about this but, with the boards down, I'm unable to check.

I was also wondering as to what interactions the Eternals would actually have with each other, obviously they would be hard to comprehend at this kind of level but it is intriguing. You mention they dwell in Muzaloth - what do they do there? Is there any kind of society or factions? Do they converse or battle or are they above such things? Since they embody a universe, how do they appear? Do they take a quasi-humanoid form or are they great sentient masses of energy that talk telepathically? Or do they simply gather around and moan about the Supreme Being and how they could do a better job ? I am similarly interested in the Omega Template: if the Supreme Being is the GM then this makes them the anti-GM, a scary prospect .

Additionally, since people seem to be pointing out errors for correction, I did spot these (mainly in the portfolio section):
1. Chaos Portfolio: favoured place section ends abruptly (and without an end bracket).
2. Metalworking domain has no granted power.
3. Might not be an error but the Double Disease Elder One ability (Lord of Terror) triples Wisdom – this does not seem to be in line with its title. Similar issue with Single Fear’s Old One ability (Doombringer increases Wisdom - this differs from the similarly-named Cosmic ability).
4. Again, could be intentional, but should a prophet of (double) Good gain poisonous blood?
5. Axiomatic Messiah and Axiomatic Affiliation (both from the Law portfolio) both use the word chaos when they should use law (i.e. why would a deity of law treat chaotic planes as its home plane?).
6. The Revenge domain has no granted power.
7. Stoicism Portfolio: Wisdom used instead of Constitution in the Elder and First One entries.
8. Not exactly an error but the First One Travel ability (superluminal) reads ‘Your speed is increased one millionfold’ but later that ability is defined as increasing speed to the speed of light. However, at these speeds it does not really make much of a difference.
9. Shouldn’t the opposed portfolio of Winter be Fire rather than Thunder?
10. In the Wisdom portfolio, under ‘realm’, there is a blank grey box like an e.g. section was going to be added but was not.
11. Withering Effect (divine ability) – the text and the example do not seem to match, it is said that one point of ability drain is inflicted per 10HD of the deity, however in the example the 100HD deity only does 2 points of drain rather than (100/10) = 10. I could be missing something here as this is just at a glance.
12. Should the Demiurge and the Time Lord gain the extraplanar sub-type? If they embody a set universe then, unless somehow in a different one, then I would have thought they’d be effectively native to all of it. Or is this showing their abilities in Muzaloth?

Liking the added art so far, can't wait for the rest (and the hopefully not-to-distant release of Gods and Monsters [or at least the first half ]).

Again, sorry for a long post but they seem to be all the rage at the minute!

Oh, and finally, Alzrius - congrats on the Death build, very impressive, the actual stats must have taken a while though !

 

[EarthSeraphEdna]

I know I've already burdened you guys with the gigantic list of errors and unclear things, but I've got a few questions about the artifact system, if you don't mind:

1.) Why does an artifact that gives you a +10 enhancement bonus to Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma cost much less than an artifact that gives you a +100 enhancement bonus to just one ability score? I know that that's the way it works in WotC's standard D&D rules, but I somehow don't think it should work like that in the Immortals Handbook. Taking Great Strength 6 times doesn't cost you more feat slots than taking Great Strength, Great Dexterity, Great Constitution, Great Intelligence, Great Wisdom, and Great Charisma, so why should you get a discount if you opt for enhancement bonuses spread out across several ability scores? In other words, I'm suggesting that the virtual discount rules for placing different kinds of bonuses on the same item be abolished, and that the bonuses are all added up instead to find the effective bonus (for instance, an artifact that granted a +8 armor bonus to AC and a +8 enhancement bonus to Strength would have the same virtual cost as an artifact that granted a +16 enhancement bonus to Strength).

2.) If you opt to take less than four artifacts, but you want to keep your HD, ECL, and CR the same, what do you get in exchange? For instance, if you're a 100 HD greater deity (ECL 180) and you just want a set of three +64 heavy picks, what do you get in return for giving up a single artifact? If you opt for just two +64 heavy picks, what do you get for abstaining from two artifacts? If you go for just one +64 scythe, what do you receive for giving up three artifacts?

3.) How does having an artifact that gives you MULTIPLE epic feats, divine abilities, cosmic abilities, transcendental abilities, and/or omnific abilities work? Do you just add up the individual abilities' market price modifiers in Table 4-1 to find its effective enhancement bonus, as if it were a magic item with the price formula [bonus^2 * 10,000 gp]? For example, if you're a 100 HD greater deity, you can have an artifact with a +90 bonus that uses that price formula, so can you have the artifact grant you 2 cosmic abilities (+36 each) and 3 divine abilities (+6 each)? If so, then do you need to meet the prerequisites for the abilities that the artifact grants you, or do you gain the abilities as bonus abilities that you don't need to meet the prerequisites for?

4.) I'm a little confused about how the the "equivalent magic item modifiers" for abilities in Table 4-1 interact with the "fluid bonuses" and "static bonuses" in Table 4-4. For the sake of this example, let's assume you're an ECL 72 character, so each of your four artifacts that use the price formula [bonus squared * 10,000 gp] can have an equivalent bonus of +36. So you can make one of your artifacts a Belt of Giant Strength +36... or you can just make a custom cosmic ability (a +36 equivalent enhancement bonus) that gives you a fluid bonus (a bonus to your Strength score), and if we look up the appropriate fluid bonus for a cosmic ability, it should be +144 Strength. So should the artifact give you +36 Strength or +144 Strength? For that matter, why does a Belt of Giant Strength +36 have the same value as Bracers of Armor +36, when a Strength bonus is a fluid bonus and an armor bonus is a static bonus?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Thanks to Alzrius for his response to Adslahnit (with me working over the past few days, and again tonight, I didn't have the time for such a point by point response...though I am sure I would have gotten to it tomorrow)

Hello again Slaadmaster!

Thanks U_K, I'll check that out! Also, out of curiosity, where would people place the named overgods of the various campaign settings such as Ao (of the Forgotten Realms) and the High God (of Dragonlance). I was thinking that, since they each have total power in -and only in- their crystal sphere, that Elder One might be appropriate as a crystal sphere seems to be the closest to a 'layer' of the Material Plane that exists. However, I'm unsure how powerful, relatively speaking, that is compared to how they have been depicted (for example Ao seems to be capable of stripping his deities of their divinity - which might indicate greater power). I remember seeing a thread on DiceFreaks about this but, with the boards down, I'm unable to check.

Dicefreaks have temporarily set up here:

http://projectdf.phpbbnow.com/

Regarding the various Overgods I think it basically depends on ho wbig an area you assign them. AO could be described as a Demiurge if we accredit him with construction of all the universe/planes. However, its possible that AO simply created Toril in which case he'd be a mere Elder One.

The Lady of Pain I always had pegged as an Avatar of the first one of Fate. So she would be an Elder One.

I'm not totally sure about the Dragonlance High God.

The confusion is whether or not (for example) Krynn and Toril exist in the same universe. If they do (and this is up to the DM) then these Overgods are probably no better than Elder Ones. If we take a sort of isolated viewpoint and say that Toril is the only populated world in the universe then clearly AO is a Demiurge.

I was also wondering as to what interactions the Eternals would actually have with each other, obviously they would be hard to comprehend at this kind of level but it is intriguing.

With potentially infinite intelligence, time travel and so forth they probably already know everything that has been said and done, and will be said and done. Whether or not that makes them parts of a machine is uncertain.

You mention they dwell in Muzaloth - what do they do there? Is there any kind of society or factions? Do they converse or battle or are they above such things?

Possible factions might include:

1. Original Time Lords...those splinters of the Supreme Being
2. Evolved Time Lords
3. Lipika...mad, former supreme beings
4. Anti-Beings...time lord equivalents from negative dimensions beyond entropy
5. Mazzaroth...shapeshifters from the ninth dimension
6. Anomalies...aberrant time lords
7. Mulhatimic Dragons

Since they embody a universe, how do they appear?

You'll see when I finish the relevant illustrations.

Do they take a quasi-humanoid form or are they great sentient masses of energy that talk telepathically?

I think you would comprehend them in a form you recognised - you probably couldn't comprehend their natural form.

Or do they simply gather around and moan about the Supreme Being and how they could do a better job ?

I think every eon or two one of the time lords will get to thinking they can do a better job than the supreme being and set out on a quest to make it happen.

I am similarly interested in the Omega Template: if the Supreme Being is the GM then this makes them the anti-GM, a scary prospect .

Its the unruly player who makes everyone dislike the DM and try to take over.

Additionally, since people seem to be pointing out errors for correction, I did spot these (mainly in the portfolio section):
1. Chaos Portfolio: favoured place section ends abruptly (and without an end bracket).
2. Metalworking domain has no granted power.
3. Might not be an error but the Double Disease Elder One ability (Lord of Terror) triples Wisdom – this does not seem to be in line with its title. Similar issue with Single Fear’s Old One ability (Doombringer increases Wisdom - this differs from the similarly-named Cosmic ability).
4. Again, could be intentional, but should a prophet of (double) Good gain poisonous blood?
5. Axiomatic Messiah and Axiomatic Affiliation (both from the Law portfolio) both use the word chaos when they should use law (i.e. why would a deity of law treat chaotic planes as its home plane?).
6. The Revenge domain has no granted power.
7. Stoicism Portfolio: Wisdom used instead of Constitution in the Elder and First One entries.
8. Not exactly an error but the First One Travel ability (superluminal) reads ‘Your speed is increased one millionfold’ but later that ability is defined as increasing speed to the speed of light. However, at these speeds it does not really make much of a difference.
9. Shouldn’t the opposed portfolio of Winter be Fire rather than Thunder?
10. In the Wisdom portfolio, under ‘realm’, there is a blank grey box like an e.g. section was going to be added but was not.
11. Withering Effect (divine ability) – the text and the example do not seem to match, it is said that one point of ability drain is inflicted per 10HD of the deity, however in the example the 100HD deity only does 2 points of drain rather than (100/10) = 10. I could be missing something here as this is just at a glance.
12. Should the Demiurge and the Time Lord gain the extraplanar sub-type? If they embody a set universe then, unless somehow in a different one, then I would have thought they’d be effectively native to all of it. Or is this showing their abilities in Muzaloth?

Thanks for that.

Liking the added art so far, can't wait for the rest (and the hopefully not-to-distant release of Gods and Monsters [or at least the first half ]).

Thanks again!

Again, sorry for a long post but they seem to be all the rage at the minute!

Don't worry about it.

 

[Alzrius]

I know I've already burdened you guys with the gigantic list of errors and unclear things, but I've got a few questions about the artifact system, if you don't mind:

I hope you don't mind that I'm fielding these again, Adslahnit. Likewise, U_K, please don't think that I'm stepping on your toes!

1.) Why does an artifact that gives you a +10 enhancement bonus to Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma cost much less than an artifact that gives you a +100 enhancement bonus to just one ability score? I know that that's the way it works in WotC's standard D&D rules, but I somehow don't think it should work like that in the Immortals Handbook. Taking Great Strength 6 times doesn't cost you more feat slots than taking Great Strength, Great Dexterity, Great Constitution, Great Intelligence, Great Wisdom, and Great Charisma, so why should you get a discount if you opt for enhancement bonuses spread out across several ability scores? In other words, I'm suggesting that the virtual discount rules for placing different kinds of bonuses on the same item be abolished, and that the bonuses are all added up instead to find the effective bonus (for instance, an artifact that granted a +8 armor bonus to AC and a +8 enhancement bonus to Strength would have the same virtual cost as an artifact that granted a +16 enhancement bonus to Strength).

I think U_K might be ahead of you on this one. Have you seen the quick artifact creation rules on page 26? He basically outlines what you're talking about. Under his system, calculating the power of an immortal's four artifacts is quickly based on the immortal's ECL compared to the item's cost determination. For example, an item that granted a +100 enhancement bonus to Strength (cost setup being bonus squared x 1,000) is calculated as having a bonus that's 1/2 of the immortal's ECL. In other words, an immortal would have to be ECL 200 to have such an item.

2.) If you opt to take less than four artifacts, but you want to keep your HD, ECL, and CR the same, what do you get in exchange? For instance, if you're a 100 HD greater deity (ECL 180) and you just want a set of three +64 heavy picks, what do you get in return for giving up a single artifact? If you opt for just two +64 heavy picks, what do you get for abstaining from two artifacts? If you go for just one +64 scythe, what do you receive for giving up three artifacts?

I asked this same question a little while ago. U_K's answer is that every artifact you give up is worth a number of divine abilities equal to your current divinity template's divine bonus. For example, a greater deity with only three artifacts would have an extra sixteen divine abilities (for greater numbers of abilities, they should be grouped towards esoteric abilities if possible - my write-up of Death, for example, gave him only two artifacts, meaning he had an extra +96 divine abilities. Hence, he received two extra transcendental abilities (thirty-six divine abilities' worth each), two extra cosmic abilities (six divine abilities' worth each), and twelve extra divine abilities).

3.) How does having an artifact that gives you MULTIPLE epic feats, divine abilities, cosmic abilities, transcendental abilities, and/or omnific abilities work? Do you just add up the individual abilities' market price modifiers in Table 4-1 to find its effective enhancement bonus, as if it were a magic item with the price formula [bonus^2 * 10,000 gp]? For example, if you're a 100 HD greater deity, you can have an artifact with a +90 bonus that uses that price formula, so can you have the artifact grant you 2 cosmic abilities (+36 each) and 3 divine abilities (+6 each)? If so, then do you need to meet the prerequisites for the abilities that the artifact grants you, or do you gain the abilities as bonus abilities that you don't need to meet the prerequisites for?

I'd use the rules as laid out in Table 4-1 in determining an artifact's bonuses when calculating the worth of divine abilities in artifacts.

4.) I'm a little confused about how the the "equivalent magic item modifiers" for abilities in Table 4-1 interact with the "fluid bonuses" and "static bonuses" in Table 4-4. For the sake of this example, let's assume you're an ECL 72 character, so each of your four artifacts that use the price formula [bonus squared * 10,000 gp] can have an equivalent bonus of +36. So you can make one of your artifacts a Belt of Giant Strength +36... or you can just make a custom cosmic ability (a +36 equivalent enhancement bonus) that gives you a fluid bonus (a bonus to your Strength score), and if we look up the appropriate fluid bonus for a cosmic ability, it should be +144 Strength. So should the artifact give you +36 Strength or +144 Strength? For that matter, why does a Belt of Giant Strength +36 have the same value as Bracers of Armor +36, when a Strength bonus is a fluid bonus and an armor bonus is a static bonus?

Magic items and artifacts, by definition, seem to be static bonuses. No matter how many levels you gain, your belt of giant strength +6 is always going to grant the same bonus to your Strength score, for example. Given that, I'd not worry about whether the bonus a divine ability grants is fluid or static when calculating it's worth in terms of an item's ability cost.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Adslahnit matey!

I know I've already burdened you guys with the gigantic list of errors and unclear things, but I've got a few questions about the artifact system, if you don't mind:

1.) Why does an artifact that gives you a +10 enhancement bonus to Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma cost much less than an artifact that gives you a +100 enhancement bonus to just one ability score? I know that that's the way it works in WotC's standard D&D rules, but I somehow don't think it should work like that in the Immortals Handbook. Taking Great Strength 6 times doesn't cost you more feat slots than taking Great Strength, Great Dexterity, Great Constitution, Great Intelligence, Great Wisdom, and Great Charisma, so why should you get a discount if you opt for enhancement bonuses spread out across several ability scores? In other words, I'm suggesting that the virtual discount rules for placing different kinds of bonuses on the same item be abolished, and that the bonuses are all added up instead to find the effective bonus (for instance, an artifact that granted a +8 armor bonus to AC and a +8 enhancement bonus to Strength would have the same virtual cost as an artifact that granted a +16 enhancement bonus to Strength).

Okay, the reason it doesn't work for artifacts/magic items the way it does for feats is because you get wealth at a skewed rate of progression.

If a +2 strength item costs 2000gp and a +20 strength item costs 20,000 gp, then I'm going to have a +20 strength item at about 12th level.

While by 20th-level I'll have a +200 strength item.

2.) If you opt to take less than four artifacts, but you want to keep your HD, ECL, and CR the same, what do you get in exchange? For instance, if you're a 100 HD greater deity (ECL 180) and you just want a set of three +64 heavy picks, what do you get in return for giving up a single artifact? If you opt for just two +64 heavy picks, what do you get for abstaining from two artifacts? If you go for just one +64 scythe, what do you receive for giving up three artifacts?

I don't believe any PC would willingly take less than the full compliment of four.

NPCs would have a lower Challenge Rating of course.

Alternately they could gain new divine/cosmic etc. abilities to compensate.

3.) How does having an artifact that gives you MULTIPLE epic feats, divine abilities, cosmic abilities, transcendental abilities, and/or omnific abilities work? Do you just add up the individual abilities' market price modifiers in Table 4-1 to find its effective enhancement bonus, as if it were a magic item with the price formula [bonus^2 * 10,000 gp]? For example, if you're a 100 HD greater deity, you can have an artifact with a +90 bonus that uses that price formula, so can you have the artifact grant you 2 cosmic abilities (+36 each) and 3 divine abilities (+6 each)? If so, then do you need to meet the prerequisites for the abilities that the artifact grants you, or do you gain the abilities as bonus abilities that you don't need to meet the prerequisites for?

You would need to include prereq abilities.

I'm not much of a fan of items that just give you feats/divine/cosmic abilities etc.

4.) I'm a little confused about how the the "equivalent magic item modifiers" for abilities in Table 4-1 interact with the "fluid bonuses" and "static bonuses" in Table 4-4. For the sake of this example, let's assume you're an ECL 72 character, so each of your four artifacts that use the price formula [bonus squared * 10,000 gp] can have an equivalent bonus of +36. So you can make one of your artifacts a Belt of Giant Strength +36... or you can just make a custom cosmic ability (a +36 equivalent enhancement bonus) that gives you a fluid bonus (a bonus to your Strength score), and if we look up the appropriate fluid bonus for a cosmic ability, it should be +144 Strength. So should the artifact give you +36 Strength or +144 Strength? For that matter, why does a Belt of Giant Strength +36 have the same value as Bracers of Armor +36, when a Strength bonus is a fluid bonus and an armor bonus is a static bonus?

One of the many examples of why 3.5 ain't perfect. Fixing that particular problem would have taken too much retrofitting.

 

[EarthSeraphEdna]

I think U_K might be ahead of you on this one. Have you seen the quick artifact creation rules on page 26? He basically outlines what you're talking about. Under his system, calculating the power of an immortal's four artifacts is quickly based on the immortal's ECL compared to the item's cost determination. For example, an item that granted a +100 enhancement bonus to Strength (cost setup being bonus squared x 1,000) is calculated as having a bonus that's 1/2 of the immortal's ECL. In other words, an immortal would have to be ECL 200 to have such an item.

At the bottom of that section, it states that a belt that gives a +8 enhancement bonus to both Strength and Wisdom is worth considerably less than a belt that gives a +16 enhancement bonus to Strength, so an immortal gains a virtual discount on the net ability score gain if he opts for the former belt. I'm suggesting that for artifacts, a belt that gives a +8 enhancement bonus to Strength and Wisdom should have the same virtual price as a belt that gives a +16 enhancement bonus to Strength, to simplify working out artifact costs.

I asked this same question a little while ago. U_K's answer is that every artifact you give up is worth a number of divine abilities equal to your current divinity template's divine bonus. For example, a greater deity with only three artifacts would have an extra sixteen divine abilities (for greater numbers of abilities, they should be grouped towards esoteric abilities if possible - my write-up of Death, for example, gave him only two artifacts, meaning he had an extra +96 divine abilities. Hence, he received two extra transcendental abilities (thirty-six divine abilities' worth each), two extra cosmic abilities (six divine abilities' worth each), and twelve extra divine abilities).

That seems like a decent solution, though I'm still worried that the effective ECLs from all the divine abilities might be a bit skewed. And I'm thinking that you should also get a bonus to all of your ability scores instead of just more divine ability slots (so that the balance between ability scores and divine ability slots is maintained), though that might complicate things.

I'd use the rules as laid out in Table 4-1 in determining an artifact's bonuses when calculating the worth of divine abilities in artifacts.

So an artifact that gives you 2 cosmic abilities would effectively be a +72 enhancement bonus item, correct?

Magic items and artifacts, by definition, seem to be static bonuses. No matter how many levels you gain, your belt of giant strength +6 is always going to grant the same bonus to your Strength score, for example. Given that, I'd not worry about whether the bonus a divine ability grants is fluid or static when calculating it's worth in terms of an item's ability cost.

But if you're an immortal, your artifacts do get stronger as your ECL rises. Anyway, I'm thinking that the "static bonus" column should always be used for comparing effective enhancement bonuses for items, so that a belt that granted you a single cosmic ability would have the same value as a Belt of Giant Strength +36 or Bracers of Armor +36.

 

[WarDragon]

I don't believe any PC would willingly take less than the full compliment of four.

NPCs would have a lower Challenge Rating of course.

Alternately they could gain new divine/cosmic etc. abilities to compensate.

Of course PCs could take less than 4. Why else is there a Vow of Poverty feat, the Forsaker Prestige Class, and your own Charity portfolio? The idea of someone being badass with no toys to back him up is a very compelling one.

As a side note, is "each artifact gives abilities equal to rank" now confirmed as the official rule? If so, could you please spell it out in the next update?

That seems like a decent solution, though I'm still worried that the effective ECLs from all the divine abilities might be a bit skewed. And I'm thinking that you should also get a bonus to all of your ability scores instead of just more divine ability slots (so that the balance between ability scores and divine ability slots is maintained), though that might complicate things.

Not really an issue; one divine ability and +2 to all ability scores are interchangeable.

 

[EarthSeraphEdna]

If a +2 strength item costs 2000gp and a +20 strength item costs 20,000 gp, then I'm going to have a +20 strength item at about 12th level.

While by 20th-level I'll have a +200 strength item.

Uh, the method I suggested doesn't work that way at all. A Belt of Strength +20 is still worth 4,000,000 gp, and a Belt of Strength +200 is still worth 400,000,000 gp. It's just that a Belt of Strength and Wisdom +10 is worth the same as a Belt of Strength +20, and a Belt of Strength and Wisdom +100 is worth the same as a Belt of Strength +200, preventing virtual discounts by stacking different abilities onto the same item. Of course, you can get an even bigger discount by spreading out the abilities across several items, but immortals can only have up to 4 artifacts.

I don't believe any PC would willingly take less than the full compliment of four.

See what WarDragon said. Sometimes, you want to make a character that has only one signature item, and sometimes you want to play as a character with no items at all, especially when you're playing an immortal with a monstrous and non-humanoid form. In the event that you end up playing as your favorite character from a comic/movie/TV show/anime/manga/whatever, you'll often find that the character doesn't have a signature set of four artifacts, and that the character derived very little power from material objects.

NPCs would have a lower Challenge Rating of course.

It gets messy when you tamper with HD, ECL, and CR. A 100 HD greater deity should have the same ECL and CR as any other 100 HD greater deity for simplicity's sake; there shouldn't be 100 HD greater deities with lower ECLs and CRs just because they don't have a full set of four artifacts, so we have to give them divine ability slots to compensate instead.

Alternately they could gain new divine/cosmic etc. abilities to compensate.

But the question is, how many divine ability slots? Is what Alzrius said the official word on the matter?

You would need to include prereq abilities.

I'm not much of a fan of items that just give you feats/divine/cosmic abilities etc.

Like I asked Alzrius, an artifact that gives you 2 cosmic abilities would effectively be a +72 enhancement bonus item, equivalent to an item of [Ability Score] +72 or Bracers of Armor +72, correct?

 

[EarthSeraphEdna]

As a side note, is "each artifact gives abilities equal to rank" now confirmed as the official rule? If so, could you please spell it out in the next update?

I think I've figured out a slightly more accurate solution to this. Each artifact you forgo gives you a number of feat slots equal to 1/2 your ECL, and these feat slots may be exchanged for divine ability slots with a 6:1 ratio as usual. So a 100 HD greater deity (ECL 180) that foregoes one artifact could get 15 divine ability slots, while the same deity could get 60 divine ability slots if he gave up all four of his artifacts.

The reason why I say each artifact gives you a number of feat slots equal to 1/2 your ECL is because each artifact (assuming you use items with the price formula [bonus^2 * 10,000 gp] for all four artifacts) has an effective enhancement bonus equal to 1/2 your ECL. According to Table 4-1 on page 96, each feat you put into the item increases its effective enhancement bonus by +1, each divine ability is +6, each cosmic ability is +36, each transcendental ability is +200, and each omnific ability is +1200. So a 100 HD greater deity (ECL 180) could have an artifact that grants him 15 divine abilities, because +6 times 15 is +90.

In effect, giving up an artifact is like opting for a virtual and intangible artifact instead. While it may seem more powerful to have a set of abilities coming from yourself instead of coming from artifacts (which can be sundered or stolen), remember that divine abilities can be stolen just as easily by things like Cozen, so tangible artifacts and chunks of divine abilities each have their own pros and cons. I think it's a fair trade.

Not really an issue; one divine ability and +2 to all ability scores are interchangeable.

Which is strange, really, because according to Table 4-4 divine ability that gives a fluid bonus should give a +18 bonus, so a divine ability slot can give you +18 to one ability score. But if you take 6 epic feat slots instead, you get a +2 bonus for each of them, potentially getting a +12 bonus to one ability score. Something is definitely wrong here. Furthermore, the example in the lower left of page 97 suggests that a divine ability should give a +12 bonus to a fluid stat, so there's a discrepancy.

U_K, should a divine ability give a +18 bonus to a fluid stat or a +12 bonus to a fluid stat? For that matter, are the other values for bonuses to fluid stat correct? Should a cosmic ability should give a +144 bonus to a fluid stat, should a transcendental ability give a +1,000 bonus to a fluid stat, and should an omnific ability give a +7,200 bonus to a fluid stat?