Immortals Handbook - Ascension Discussion

[paradox42]

I love that rewrite of the [Aligned] Words! Tying the effect to degree of failure is a great mechanic, and one used frequently in the Skills rules.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

I love that rewrite of the [Aligned] Words! Tying the effect to degree of failure is a great mechanic, and one used frequently in the Skills rules.

I noted that in the 2E->3E conversion, some spells didn't change AT ALL. They still used 'old school' concepts like D% rolls; special skill or ability checks that can fail on ones in this one instance of the rules, and spells hit things of certain HD or less and suck otherwise. (Has anyone ever cast Circle of Death? I mean, really, Fireball is better) So I sort of went through most of the spells generally called out as problem spells (Holy-word/Timestop/Polymorph) and spells I noted had extra-complex mechanics or useless mechanics (Contact Other Plane, Circle of Death) and fiddled with them as sort of a House-Rules working document. (like making the Teleport-error table a D20 table instead of a D%; Making the Prismatic Spells and Circle of Death good; etc) If anyone is interested, I'll attach the rest.
I'll also admit my timestop entry was NOT geared for immortal-level play; It is still usable, but it isn't either an auto-win or 'DM fiat causes you to waste your turn cause this particular monster is immune'. In fact, that last paragraph of my timestop rewrite can pretty much be ignored, since it only applies to non-epic campaigns where 9th level spells are the most powerful stuff available.

 

[EarthSeraphEdna]

In which case just add a number of divine ability slots equal to the immortal's divine rank x missing artifacts.

Of course, while balanced, that does have a tendency to give ridiculous numbers of divine abilities so I always suggest you use the most powerful abilities possible.

e.g. If you gain an extra 12 divine ability slots use 2 cosmic abilities rather than 12 divine abilities.

Hmm, I still say that "For each artifact you forego, you receive an amount of feat slots equal to 1/2 your ECL, which may then be converted into divine ability slots using the standard 1:6 tradeoff ratio," would be more accurate than "For each artifact you forego, you receive a number of divine ability slots equal to your divine rank." Consider the following two examples:

1.) A 70 HD intermediate deity (ECL 130) could take an artifact to receive a +65* item (which could grant him 10 divine ability slots and 5 feat slots), or he could forego it to receive 65 feat slots (which could grant him 10 divine abilities and 5 feats). If he were to gain a number of divine ability slots equal to his divine rank instead, he would receive 12 divine ability slots, which is moderately better than 10 divine ability slots and 5 feat slots.

2.) A 100 HD greater deity (ECL 180) could take an artifact to receive a +90* item (which could grant him 15 divine ability slots), or he could give it up to get 15 divine ability slots instead. If he were to gain a number of divine ability slots equal to his divine rank instead, he would gain 24 divine ability slots, which is considerably better than 15 divine ability slots.

*Items that use the price formula [bonus^2 * 10,000 gp].

As you can see from both examples, if we use "For each artifact you forego, you receive a number of divine ability slots equal to your divine rank," it's almost always better for a deity to give up artifacts for more divine ability slots, from a mechanical perspective. This is why I recommend "For each artifact you forego, you receive an amount of feat slots equal to 1/2 your ECL, which may then be converted into divine ability slots using the standard 1:6 tradeoff ratio" instead. It's not much harder to calculate, and it lets immortals of the same divine rank but with different HD get different tradeoffs by giving up artifacts (so an 80 HD greater deity would receive less divine ability slots if he gives up an artifact, compared to a 115 HD greater deity who gives up an artifact, as it should be).

 

[scifan888]

Hi there Upper Krust. In Ascension you refer to various templates such as the cimerical, welkin and omega. Why don't you do an Appendix 2 and stat out the various templates instead of waiting for later releases.
Oh and a question about the Omnipresent ability. It says your aura extends to the edges of the universe. What does it mean by universe? Is it an entire plane or as an omnific ability does it mean all planes and in that particular reality or something else?
I eagerly await the other products.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there!

On a different note, I noticed that disciples, prophets, and hero-deities may not be able to take epic feats just because they don't have 21+ HD, even though they already have divine ability slots. Should disciples, prophets, and hero-deities be able to select epic feats, provided that they can meet the prerequisites of whatever they pick?

Anything of ECL 21+ should be able to take epic feats.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya matey!

Hmm, I still say that "For each artifact you forego, you receive an amount of feat slots equal to 1/2 your ECL, which may then be converted into divine ability slots using the standard 1:6 tradeoff ratio," would be more accurate than "For each artifact you forego, you receive a number of divine ability slots equal to your divine rank." Consider the following two examples:

1.) A 70 HD intermediate deity (ECL 130) could take an artifact to receive a +65* item (which could grant him 10 divine ability slots and 5 feat slots), or he could forego it to receive 65 feat slots (which could grant him 10 divine abilities and 5 feats). If he were to gain a number of divine ability slots equal to his divine rank instead, he would receive 12 divine ability slots, which is moderately better than 10 divine ability slots and 5 feat slots.

2.) A 100 HD greater deity (ECL 180) could take an artifact to receive a +90* item (which could grant him 15 divine ability slots), or he could give it up to get 15 divine ability slots instead. If he were to gain a number of divine ability slots equal to his divine rank instead, he would gain 24 divine ability slots, which is considerably better than 15 divine ability slots.

*Items that use the price formula [bonus^2 * 10,000 gp].

As you can see from both examples, if we use "For each artifact you forego, you receive a number of divine ability slots equal to your divine rank," it's almost always better for a deity to give up artifacts for more divine ability slots, from a mechanical perspective. This is why I recommend "For each artifact you forego, you receive an amount of feat slots equal to 1/2 your ECL, which may then be converted into divine ability slots using the standard 1:6 tradeoff ratio" instead. It's not much harder to calculate, and it lets immortals of the same divine rank but with different HD get different tradeoffs by giving up artifacts (so an 80 HD greater deity would receive less divine ability slots if he gives up an artifact, compared to a 115 HD greater deity who gives up an artifact, as it should be).

Firstly, your idea is more complicated and I don't really see a vast benefit having to work out 10 divine abilities (or 1 cosmic plus 4 divine) and 5 feats when I could instead just assign two cosmic powers (as I suggest).

Secondly, a Greater Deity has a Divine Rank 16, not 24. So the difference in your example is a single divine ability.

I honestly don't believe theres any real benefit here. You are just adding another layer of complexity.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi there Upper Krust.

Hey there scifan888!

Welcome to the boards!

In Ascension you refer to various templates such as the cimerical, welkin and omega. Why don't you do an Appendix 2 and stat out the various templates instead of waiting for later releases.

Yes, I apologise for those abilities, they are sort of cheating in a way...though obviously I was under the impression I'd have Ascension finished 18 months ago and be on Bestiary VII by now!

The Cimeriel was planned to be in Gods & Monsters (and still may be). The Welkin (and the Cimeriel if it doesn't show up sooner than later) will be in an Epic Undead themed Bestiary at some point.

I honestly wish I'd never mentioned the darn Omega template to be honest.

Oh and a question about the Omnipresent ability. It says your aura extends to the edges of the universe. What does it mean by universe? Is it an entire plane or as an omnific ability does it mean all planes and in that particular reality or something else?

The extent of the physical reality you inhabit. The edge might be a layer, a plane or a dimension.

I eagerly await the other products.

Thanks for the kind words.

 

[EarthSeraphEdna]

I suppose we can just go with the "You get a number of divine ability slots equal to your divine rank" idea then, as much as I'm reluctant to accept it. Anyway, I've got a few questions about the ability negation abilities: the Abrogate cosmic ability (negates an enemy's most powerful ability), the Nullification cosmic ability (negates all of an enemy's feats), the Divine Nullification transcendental ability (negates all of an enemy's divine abilities), and the Cosmic Nullification omnific ability (negates all of an enemy's cosmic abilities).

1.) What's the range of these abilities? Abrogate states that the enemy has to be within your divine aura, so I'm assuming all the other similar abilities work that way too.

2.) How many enemies are affected by these abilities? Abrogate specifies only a single enemy, so I'm assuming that all the other similar abilities work that was as well.

2a.) If it's just one enemy, then what kind of action does it take to switch targets? Once per round as a free action, for each negation ability?

3.) When an ability or ability score is negated such that the prerequisites for other abilities cannot be met, what happens to those abilities whose prerequisites were lost? For example, if an immortal has completed the Weapon Focus/Specialization ability chain up to the divine and cosmic levels, and that immortal's feats are negated by Nullification, what happens to his divine abilities and cosmic abilities in the Weapon Focus/Specialization chain? To give another example, if an immortal has several abilities that require a high Charisma score, and his Charisma gets reduced to 10 by Abrogate, what happens to those abilities?

4.) If an immortal wants to use Abrogate but does not have Psychometry for viewing his enemy's abilities, how is the "most powerful ability" decided on?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Adslahnit dude!

I suppose we can just go with the "You get a number of divine ability slots equal to your divine rank" idea then, as much as I'm reluctant to accept it.

Simplicity is almost always better, especially when the net benefits of the added complication are negligable.

Anyway, I've got a few questions about the ability negation abilities: the Abrogate cosmic ability (negates an enemy's most powerful ability), the Nullification cosmic ability (negates all of an enemy's feats), the Divine Nullification transcendental ability (negates all of an enemy's divine abilities), and the Cosmic Nullification omnific ability (negates all of an enemy's cosmic abilities).

1.) What's the range of these abilities? Abrogate states that the enemy has to be within your divine aura, so I'm assuming all the other similar abilities work that way too.

Range is Divine Aura, correct.

2.) How many enemies are affected by these abilities? Abrogate specifies only a single enemy, so I'm assuming that all the other similar abilities work that was as well.

Technically that should be all enemies within your divine aura.

3.) When an ability or ability score is negated such that the prerequisites for other abilities cannot be met, what happens to those abilities whose prerequisites were lost? For example, if an immortal has completed the Weapon Focus/Specialization ability chain up to the divine and cosmic levels, and that immortal's feats are negated by Nullification, what happens to his divine abilities and cosmic abilities in the Weapon Focus/Specialization chain? To give another example, if an immortal has several abilities that require a high Charisma score, and his Charisma gets reduced to 10 by Abrogate, what happens to those abilities?

The abilities are not lost, the prereqs are only temporarily negated. Also I think these powers are confusing enough as is.

An easy way to solve this in 4E may be to negate Daily's or Encounter powers or At Will Powers.

4.) If an immortal wants to use Abrogate but does not have Psychometry for viewing his enemy's abilities, how is the "most powerful ability" decided on?

Randomly.

 

[Alzrius]

My understanding is that the power negated by Abrogate is not chosen by the deity that has Abrogate. The "most powerful ability" is objectively chosen (by the GM) and whether or not the deity knows what that ability is and what it does has no bearing on that.