Immortals Handbook - Godsend

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy dante!

*twitches from epic withdrawal* "Need...more...epic...need...more...Krustian...GOODNESS...losing grip on reality...seeing non-epic everywhere...AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
*twitches...jerks...spasms...and twitches from epic withdrawal*
*madness abates...*

"Heya Krusty, are ye putting out any more previews? Anything?...A glimmer?...A sneak peak?"

*twitches*

No, you'll have to wait for Godsend, though I may have some previews to that when I get the chance.

Of course while waiting you could always read up on 4th Edition.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there paradox mate!

This will be my final word on this subject, since (as previously stated) I am not interested in debate.

Well I do like a good debate, but I don't want any bad blood, so I'll make this my last reply on the matter.

You asked what I consider to be 4th Edition's bad ideas; I listed them. Even that was more effort than I really cared to spend on the subject. I have no desire to become an "edition warrior" and will not do so. I will, however, take some small time to respond to the insults in this last post.

I think insult is a bit harsh. I only ever addressed your comments. But I apologise for any perceived slight.

My claims are irrational because I have not bothered to cover my opinions with reason or logic, as you have.

Of course, as a designer I don't have the luxury of irrationality. Every choice has to be logical.

Your support for aspects of 4th Edition is in many cases just as irrational as my dislike for those same aspects,

Not sure I agree with that. My support for 4E is primarily based on the fact that it is a much simpler system (and therefore easier to design for), a much better balanced system and also a much more interesting and dynamic system (primarily in terms of class options). The latter being pure opinion, but my other two reasons are pretty much given facts.

but you went to the trouble of rationalizing those opinions (i.e. "I like this. Now why is that?") whereas I did not bother to rationalize my dislike. Opinions are, by definition, fundamentally emotional reactions to a thing or event, and therefore are all irrational in their own right. People cover the opinions they want to defend with chains of reasoning that sound logical to them (even if they don't necessarily sound logical to anyone else). In my case, my opinion is negative, and I'm not interested in spending the effort to defend it with logic or math- I would consider such effort to be a waste. I'm much more interested in offering constructive criticism where I can come up with some.

I have to be able to rationalise my decisions. Which is why I want people to tell me their problems with 4E...in a diagnosis before treatment kind of thing.

A worthy goal, since understanding is the foundation of civilized discourse. However, it is clear from our posts that many (if not most) of the aspects of 4th Edition that you consider to be positives, I consider to be negatives. As long as we acknowledge that we all live in a diverse world where different people have differing opinions regarding the same objects, ideas, or events, and that's okay, we can get along. Many of the things that appeal to you about 4th Edition are precisely the things which turn me off about it. Accept it and move on, because I don't feel like going to the trouble of explaining myself. I frankly have better things to do.

Okay.

A fair point in any argument about the merits of 3.X, but irrelevant to a discussion of what I dislike in 4th Edition. I have never claimed that 3.X is perfect, nor would I ever make such a claim. It has plenty of warts, and plenty of things which while still gold are perhaps tarnished a bit with some mold or other detritus of past years. That's what house rules are for. Rest assured that if I ever do, someday, run a 4th Edition game, I will put many house rules into place in that game as well.

I would expect no less from you.

Here, in a reverse of me stating opinions that are not understood by you, we have an argument that I've seen more times than I can even remember- and that has never washed with me. It just makes no sense in my book. "Special" is ultimately in the eye of the beholder. Just because Tom and his buddies can all have such a weapon, does not mean that they all want to or will. It does not mean that when the characters find one in a treasure pile, that it isn't the only one of its kind in the cosmos at that time.

That seems to work both ways though. Mechanically, if it is special then why can it not simply be an artifact, which is allowed multiple powers.

In 3E, Artifacts were simply the same as Epic Items. Thus an artifact (in name) was irrelevant. In 4E there appears to be a difference between Artfacts and Magic Items in both a conceptual AND a mechanical way.

That doesn't mean to say that immortals (or even mortal heroes) cannot have multiple artifacts or even that two immortals (or heroes) cannot have similar if not identical artifacts.

Yes you did, and I ignored that rule immediately since (as stated above) the argument it's based on has never been sensible to me. What I did do is declare a new category of Major Artifact in my game, after the PCs hit divinity, which is directly linked to the soul of a deity and thus grows as the deity does- it is up to the individual deity whether or not to have one or more. Most of my players, after learning that these items could give them access to divine abilities beyond those granted to them purely by divine ranks alone, opted to take four- but a few did not, and were accordingly granted extra divine slots per the rules hammered out in this very forum (though obviously not this very thread). So the "rule of 4" is still sort of in there, just not as absolute as you had it.

The rule of four was pretty flexible in that it was not forced.

I think, if you can turn a harsh spotlight on your own thinking, that you'll see that most of your own thinking about 4th Edition is just as irrational at the base- you've just gone to some trouble to shore it up and explain it to make it look rational. You fundamentally like many (if not most) of the things that I fundamentally dislike. The difference is, I'm not interested in explaining myself- I recognize my opinions as opinions and accept that not everybody will share them. Moving on.

I like to think I'm a pretty rational guy.

It is accepted as psychological fact that reasoning is something typically used to defend an irrational opinion, rather than something that opinions are themselves based on. I'm of the opinion that I've wallowed in too much negativity in my life, and accordingly am not interested in bothering to shore up my negative opinions with reason.

Fair enough.

 

[dante58701]

Howdy dante!

Howdy pardner! *puts away the cattle prod*

No, you'll have to wait for Godsend, though I may have some previews to that when I get the chance.

Looking forward to it.

Of course while waiting you could always read up on 4th Edition.

Already did, I read it in my favorite book store. It still leaves me cold even after thoroughly analyzing it. It just doesn't appeal to me.

 

[dante58701]

Hey...Krusty...it's...AUGUST!!! =^.^= lulz

Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?...ect. =^.^=

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Upper_Krust!

Yesterday, after finishing up some final work on my current game, I spent some thought on 4E Immortal's Math. Plugging the DMG guidelines, and the numbers from your sites' table, I noticed a slight math 'hiccup'. Monster Defenses scales ~ faster then projected PC bonuses to hit. It was a small error, but it means at the upper tiers of play that players are going to need a few more 'pluses' to hit. (On the order of about +1/5-10 levels)

My train of though started, absurdly (as usual) at level 100. A level 100 solo, by DMG guidelines, is really easy to work out, but his Defenses (AC 119; Fortitude 112, Reflex 115, Will 117) are about ~25 points higher then average PC projected to-hit modifiers.
Projected PC Hit mods:
Stat: Say base 16, +2 from race. (18 total)
- +2 per 10 levels (+20; 38 total)
- +1 to all attributes at each tier (assuming each tier is every 10 levels) (+10, 48 total)
So a maximum attribute, barring class mods (few of these I assume), is 48 - 50. Modifier +19-20.
Magic weapon is +1/5 levels, or +20 at 100th.
+39-40
+1/2 Level
+89-90
Proficiency is another +2-3 usually, plus the odd feat or two, you still end up being over 21 points (30 worst case, 27 points best case) short.

Even if you plan to end immortal's at 75th level, the problem will crop up there too. (22-20 points likely missing at 75th)

Simple solution is to work in some +'s.

As a Side note, Designing a Timelord is easy and fun in 4E, even without having to make up any new rules or conditions.
[sblock]
Anti-Spiral Collective
Level 100 Solo Timelord
Zetta-Large Immortal humanoid
XP: All of it
Initiative +79
Senses Perception +75; darkvision, Truesight ∞, Timesight ∞
HP 4355; Bloodied 2177; see also Indignation power.
Regeneration 50
AC 119; Fortitude 112, Reflex 115, Will 117
Immune: Poison, Disease, Stunning
Resist: Psychic 55
Saving Throws +5
Speed ∞; see also Random Schroedinger Warp power
Action Points 2
M Unarmed Strike (standard; at-will)
Reach ∞; +109 vs. AC; 10d10+50 damage.
m Time Dilation (standard; at-will) * Time, Cosmic
The Anti-Spiral Collective makes two Unarmed Strike attacks.
m Galaxy Suplex (standard; at-will)
+109 vs AC; 16d10+50 damage and the target slides into a square adjacent to the Anti-Spiral Collective and is grabbed (until escape). While grabbed, the target loses any resistances it has.
r Galaxy Shuriken (standard; at-will)
Range ∞; +106 vs. Reflex; 14d10 + 50 damage and the target is knocked prone.
r Space-time Manipulation (Minor; at-will) * Time, Space, Cosmic
Range ∞; +106 vs. Will; 7d10 + 50 damage and the target is marked.
c Beamspam (standard; recharge 456) * Force
Close burst ∞; +107 vs. Will; 20d10 + 50 Force damage and the target is dazed (save ends).
a Anti-Matter Blast (Standard; Recharge 6) * Anti-Matter, Transcendent
Close Blast ∞; +107 vs. Fortitude; 37d10 + 50 damage plus an ongoing 50 damage and the target is weakened (save ends both).
r Infinity Big Bang Storm (Standard; encounter) * Omnific
Ranged ∞; +107 vs. Fortitude; The target loses all it's hit points. Further, it takes ongoing damage equal to it's healing surge value (save ends).
Indignation (immediate reaction, when first bloodied; encounter)
The Anti-Spiral Collective immediately recharges it's Infinity Big Bang Storm Power and uses it as part of this action.
Random Schroedinger Warp (Move; Recharge 5 6) * Teleportation, Transcendent
The Anti-Spiral Collective Teleports ∞ Squares and gains combat advantage against any opponents it ends it's move adjacent to.
Abrogate (Immediate Interrupt; when a foe uses a power; recharge 5 6) * Cosmic
The foe's power operates without any effect. The power's user loses the action spent on the power and expends use of the power without benefit. If the Anti-Spiral Collective has combat advantage against the power's user, that power cannot be used for the rest of the encounter.
Combat Advantage
The Anti-Spiral Collective deals an additional 150 damage to foes it has combat advantage against.
Alignment Unaligned
Languages Polyglot
Skills All (Ability Modifier +5)
Str 70 (+80)
Dex 65 (+77)
Wis 60 (+70)
Con 63 (+76)
Int 60 (+70)
Cha 67 (+78)
[/sblock]

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Hey...Krusty...it's...AUGUST!!! =^.^= lulz

Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?...ect. =^.^=

I only work 5 days out of the next 30* so I'll have plenty of time to get Godsend into something approaching a final state.

*Admittedly 9 of those will be spent on holiday in London, but consider it a working holiday.

 

[paradox42]

Dimensional Magic FTW

Just for the record, my group is most eager to see the Dimensional Magic rules, since unhappiness has already been expressed at the melee vs. magic imbalance under current rules. Since we recently did a fast-forward of the main game by several years after finishing the Big Event that the campaign had been building up to for about 6 years of real time, and upped those party members who didn't retire by lots of levels and several divine ranks, it's a noticeable problem.

On the up side, with Gen Con coming up and new characters (and even for that matter character changes) not yet completed in that game, there's (admittedly small) time yet before it becomes an immediate issue.

Also: did you mean to post that in the "4th Edition and the Immortals Handbook" thread, Ltheb? We're not really concerned with 4E rules, here.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Yea, I did. I needed to go and take care of things away from home, and I mistakenly posted it in the wrong thread without thinking. I apollogize if I derailed the thread. (U_K, I don't know if you can trans-post my last post here, [Is trans-posting a transcendental power?] but I did intend to put it in the IH4E thread; If you want, I can remove it and just post it in the 4E thread myself...)

That said, I am still interested in Godsend, even if it isn't 4E, since its just one more thing to wrap my brain around (which oddly seems to be not functioning at current) before U_K starts his 4E IH. Dimensional Magic seems like one of those things too awesome to miss out on.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Sorry about the delays.

ENWorld just grinds to a halt for me more often than not.

Hiya paradox matey!

Just for the record, my group is most eager to see the Dimensional Magic rules, since unhappiness has already been expressed at the melee vs. magic imbalance under current rules. Since we recently did a fast-forward of the main game by several years after finishing the Big Event that the campaign had been building up to for about 6 years of real time, and upped those party members who didn't retire by lots of levels and several divine ranks, it's a noticeable problem.

Well get ready for the biggest reversal in fortunes ever. If anything I think this whole dimensional magic 'malarkey' is TOO powerful.

On the up side, with Gen Con coming up and new characters (and even for that matter character changes) not yet completed in that game, there's (admittedly small) time yet before it becomes an immediate issue.

Cool.

 

[Upper_Krust]

From I just clicked on 'quote' its taken about 15 minutes to open this page.

Howdy Ltheb mate!

Saw that Time Lord post last night but got timed out when I tried to reply.

Yea, I did. I needed to go and take care of things away from home, and I mistakenly posted it in the wrong thread without thinking. I apollogize if I derailed the thread.

Don't worry about it.

(U_K, I don't know if you can trans-post my last post here, [Is trans-posting a transcendental power?] but I did intend to put it in the IH4E thread; If you want, I can remove it and just post it in the 4E thread myself...)

It would probably take me about an hour to solve that problem with the current speed of the boards.

That said, I am still interested in Godsend, even if it isn't 4E, since its just one more thing to wrap my brain around (which oddly seems to be not functioning at current) before U_K starts his 4E IH. Dimensional Magic seems like one of those things too awesome to miss out on.

If by awesome, you mean powerful. Then it could well be awesome.