D&D 4E Importing 4e core assumptions into other settings? advice pls?

[Guang]

In the last month, I've been re-reading some of my old 4e books, and I LOVE so much of the fluff and core assumptions (DMG1 pg150). Many things I like are fantastic, turned up to 11. What would it take to alter another setting with some of these assumptions? I'm specifically thinking of the Sandpoint/Magnimar/Kaer Maga area used in 3 of Paizo's APs (Rise of the Runelords, Jade Regent, Shattered Star), but general advice is also appreciated.

Hoping for some discussion and/or advice and opinions on how to put some 4e amazement into the specified setting (or into non-4e settings in general). I've been taking notes and investigating some on my own, but not sure how to actually implement changes, ramping up the core assumptions involved. Here is some of what I'm talking about, organized by 4e core assumption:
The Civilized Races Band Together: Races are considered civilized because they banded together against the surrounding darkness. "Who cares that Bob is 12 feet tall and scary looking? He's a respected member of the town guard, and that's all that's really important. We've had neighbors like him for generations." I've never seen it taken to quite this degree in any other setting, and would love to change settings to be more like this.
The World is Mysterious: Humans are not the only ones in charge, and absolutely anything could be in the next valley over, or even closer. Instead of almost-normal medieval life going on until an invasion of bad-weird-events/monsters show up.
The World is a Fantastic Place: I see weirder things outside my window at home every week than the "normal" before Paizo APs really get started. Sometimes even more than halfway through the AP. Granted, I live in a weird location - people calmly living in houses in long-demolished parts of town nearby, a man threatening to kill his own child to avoid a speeding ticket, parents demanding that their children being allowed to cheat on a test so that the test would be fair, a nurse telling me she had no idea what was wrong with my child (he had a bad cold) because her training didn't cover our ethnicity, bugs for dinner, and on and on and on - hundreds of stories. I thus need more fantastic in my fantasy.
Monsters are Everywhere: Travel in Paizo APs is generally "uneventful", even when traveling hundreds or even thousands of miles. Cities have some variety, but usually not the epic wow stuff of 4e (although Kaer Maga comes close).
The World is Ancient: Layer upon layer of fallen empires. Greater Magnimar only has the one. Would love to see another few layers.

Thank you. I've been thinking of how to phrase this for more than a week now Hoping for some enworld wisdom from you all (and no edition wars please - sorry if I come across as negative to either system under discussion. Just trying to explain my subjective situation, not put down).

 

[Tony Vargas]

In the last month, I've been re-reading some of my old 4e books, and I LOVE so much of the fluff and core assumptions (DMG1 pg150). Many things I like are fantastic, turned up to 11. What would it take to alter another setting with some of these assumptions? I'm specifically thinking of the Sandpoint/Magnimar/Kaer Maga area used in 3 of Paizo's APs (Rise of the Runelords, Jade Regent, Shattered Star), but general advice is also appreciated.

I'm familiar with the PoL assumptions, but not the PF stuff, so I can't help much, but I just have take a guess:

Granted, I live in a weird location people calmly living in houses in long-demolished parts of town nearby, ... and on and on and on - hundreds of stories.

Detroit?

Hoping for some discussion and/or advice and opinions on how to put some 4e amazement into the specified setting (or into non-4e settings in general). I've been taking notes and investigating some on my own, but not sure how to actually implement changes, ramping up the core assumptions involved. Here is some of what I'm talking about, organized by 4e core assumption:
The Civilized Races Band Together:
The World is Mysterious:
The World is a Fantastic Place:
Monsters are Everywhere:
The World is Ancient:
Thank you. I've been thinking of how to phrase this for more than a week now Hoping for some enworld wisdom from you all (and no edition wars please - sorry if I come across as negative to either system under discussion. Just trying to explain my subjective situation, not put down).

There's really very little system-related that plays into the above. So, for the most part, it's 'just do it,' there should be no problems.

There are two little metagame bits that you could crib from 4e that might help:

1) PCs are unique. Don't stat NPC or villains as PC classes, don't give non-PCs significant/highly-available magic or HD or overnight healing or Inspiration or possibly even saving throws - or, at least, not much of those things, and not all in one NPC. This makes the world more mysterious, too, the PCs can't just see someone cast a particular spell, figure out they 'must' be this or that class, and thus have that or this ability.
2) PCs are the Heroes: Skip apprentice tier so the PCs can handle traveling through the Darkness between the Points of Light.

On the plus side: 5e's rarer/higher-impact ('makes you just better') magic items are ideal for driving home The World is Ancient, and long-lost magocracies and cryptic pre-human civilizations created items far beyond the ken of the mere mortals of today (or even the PCs).

 

[Guang]

I'm familiar with the PoL assumptions, but not the PF stuff, so I can't help much, but I just have take a guess: Detroit?

Several thousand miles away from Detroit. Pretty sure where I live is weirder than there, but I guess they do have the demolished stuff. Here is because of people refusing to move away when an entire area is razed, slated for new construction. Normal shops and homes in the middle of a hundred acres of rubble.

In most locations, PF's Golarion feels very similar to 3.5 Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk to me - as I think was the intent.

There's really very little system-related that plays into the above. So, for the most part, it's 'just do it,' there should be no problems.

There are two little metagame bits that you could crib from 4e that might help:

1) PCs are unique. Don't stat NPC or villains as PC classes, don't give non-PCs significant/highly-available magic or HD or overnight healing or Inspiration or possibly even saving throws - or, at least, not much of those things, and not all in one NPC. This makes the world more mysterious, too, the PCs can't just see someone cast a particular spell, figure out they 'must' be this or that class, and thus have that or this ability.

2) PCs are the Heroes: Skip apprentice tier so the PCs can handle traveling through the Darkness between the Points of Light.

Nerf the badguys and NPCS, Dark Sun the PCs. Sounds like it would just make an AP too easy rather than giving it a 4e-style atmosphere?

On the plus side: 5e's rarer/higher-impact ('makes you just better') magic items are ideal for driving home The World is Ancient, and long-lost magocracies and cryptic pre-human civilizations created items far beyond the ken of the mere mortals of today (or even the PCs).

Interesting......I thought 5e was just the Forgotten Realms restored to 3.5. Would I find these descriptions in the DMG?

 

[Tony Vargas]

Nerf the badguys and NPCS, Dark Sun the PCs. Sounds like it would just make an AP too easy rather than giving it a 4e-style atmosphere?

Oh, not nerf, just not PC-class. They can be as deadly a monster write-up as you like. An NPC casting fireball may be deadly, but he's using a spell that familiar, depending on what else he does, you might figure out his class. An NPC who conjures a roiling cloud of darkness within which unseen jaws chomp at you might feel a little different, and drive how the idea that the world is mysterious/fantastic, not just a bunch of classes all drawing on the same spell list.

Interesting......I thought 5e was just the Forgotten Realms restored to 3.5. Would I find these descriptions in the DMG?

The implementation of magic items this time around makes them higher-impact, you can leverage that to create the feel of ancient civilizations that created them. You'll still have to make up the civilizations, though. Sorry.

 

[S'mon]

a nurse telling me she had no idea what was wrong with my child (he had a bad cold) because her training didn't cover our ethnicity

I've had that.

Doctor:
"You baby is so pale! He needs a blood test!"

Me:
"We all look like that!"

He was actually less pale than the average newborn where I'm from (Belfast) - doctor was
London south-Asian or Afro-Caribbean and apparently she'd never seen a Celtic baby before.

On-topic:

I thought Varisia was pretty close to the 4e assumptions re world is ancient, civilised races
(PHB races) vs 'greenskins', etc. I guess there is a timeline issue re the vast time between the fall of the Runelords and the present day that gives plenty of space to include additional lesser empires. You could also emphasise the initial Cheliaxan colonisation wave, Varisia's equivalent to Nerath, for more recent ruins of forts, abandoned villages and suchlike, with plenty of opportunity for bound devils etc. But going further back, a thousand years or so, you can do things like remnants of actual Varisian kingdoms arising after the Age of Darkness, legends of great kings who will one day return. Maybe the stone giants had their own successor-state kingdoms too. The Ulfen may have had substantial colonies at some point. There is a lot that can be added while sticking with established history. And you can add in 4e races like
Goliath (stone giant/Shoanti cross) and maybe even Dragonborn as a runelord creation. Tieflings of course are there already thanks to Cheliax, but can be presented more prominently. And how about some 'civilised ' goblins? Kaer Maga accepts anyone, but Magnimar might, too.

 

[Guang]

I've had that.

Doctor:
"You baby is so pale! He needs a blood test!"

Me:
"We all look like that!"

He was actually less pale than the average newborn where I'm from (Belfast) - doctor was
London south-Asian or Afro-Caribbean and apparently she'd never seen a Celtic baby before.

Thanks for that. It's nice to know that I'm not alone, or living on some other planet without realizing it.

On-topic:

I thought Varisia was pretty close to the 4e assumptions re world is ancient, civilised races
(PHB races) vs 'greenskins', etc. I guess there is a timeline issue re the vast time between the fall of the Runelords and the present day that gives plenty of space to include additional lesser empires. You could also emphasise the initial Cheliaxan colonisation wave, Varisia's equivalent to Nerath, for more recent ruins of forts, abandoned villages and suchlike, with plenty of opportunity for bound devils etc. But going further back, a thousand years or so, you can do things like remnants of actual Varisian kingdoms arising after the Age of Darkness, legends of great kings who will one day return. Maybe the stone giants had their own successor-state kingdoms too. The Ulfen may have had substantial colonies at some point. There is a lot that can be added while sticking with established history. And you can add in 4e races like
Goliath (stone giant/Shoanti cross) and maybe even Dragonborn as a runelord creation. Tieflings of course are there already thanks to Cheliax, but can be presented more prominently. And how about some 'civilised ' goblins? Kaer Maga accepts anyone, but Magnimar might, too.

Thanks. This is helping inspire me. I think I'm looking to bomb the Magnimar area into the stone age like 4e did with FR and Eberron. Heresy, I know, but the "PHB races are on the edge of not making it, and being permanently scattered" looming doom feel, with *everything* depending on the PC heroes as the hope of the world, is something that I'm really interested in. Pathfinder sourcebooks and APs really helped with systematic grounding in world believability, but now I want some of that 4e epic feel and worldwide desperation back.

 

[S'mon]

Thanks. This is helping inspire me. I think I'm looking to bomb the Magnimar area into the stone age like 4e did with FR and Eberron. Heresy, I know, but the "PHB races are on the edge of not making it, and being permanently scattered" looming doom feel, with *everything* depending on the PC heroes as the hope of the world, is something that I'm really interested in. Pathfinder sourcebooks and APs really helped with systematic grounding in world believability, but now I want some of that 4e epic feel and worldwide desperation back.

I think that's pretty easily done by saying that Varisia used to be much more settled, but humanity has been losing ground since the loss of Aroden. Rise of the Runelords features repeated humanoid attacks on human settlements which fits the meme well. Default-Golarion seems to have civilised humanity still expanding in Varisia, but this can be turned around without changing any details in the APs or the city books; the Varisian hinterlands are essentially undetailed and so underpopulated if you just go by the listed settlements that you have immense leeway.

 

[The Fighter-Cricket]

So first: Yeah, go for your approach. The PoL-"philosophy" is something that can give a setting a very vibrant tone. It is easier to go on adventuring when the world around you is a mysterious, dangerous place. I like the Nentir Vale a lot because of this as well as the 4E Realms. Adding a pale mood of looming threat into a setting makes the PCs more heroic.

I think I'm looking to bomb the Magnimar area into the stone age like 4e did with FR and Eberron.

But here I am a bit confused: 4E Realms for sure. But Eberron? I thought they retained the 3E tone in 4E (or at least most of it). You can travel through Breland etc. without a constant fear for your live and even the countryside is quite civilized. Or did I miss something?

 

[Guang]

But here I am a bit confused: 4E Realms for sure. But Eberron? I thought they retained the 3E tone in 4E (or at least most of it). You can travel through Breland etc. without a constant fear for your live and even the countryside is quite civilized. Or did I miss something?

My bad. It's been several years since I looked at anything 4e, and misremembered - or maybe never picked up 4e Eberron, I'll have to dig through the closet again to check. So neither Eberron or Dark Sun were particularly nuked in 4e? Not that Dark Sun needs to be nuked.....it kind of always was

 

[D'karr]

The great thing about these core world assumptions is that they are in no way tied to specific rules/mechanics. Therefore the extension of a published core world with these assumptions is purely story details and location filler details. Which is much easier to absorb than having to make mechanical changes. However, story can be difficult to come up with, so I understand your situation.

I'm not familiar with all the Paizo AP's you mentioned so I can't give you specifics of how I would modify those, but I can provide generalized ways of doing this.

The Civilized Races Band Together - Select the specific races you want to use for your game and create story reasons for why they are not "weird/outsiders" from each other. In my campaign goblins, tieflings, minotaurs, and dragonborn were at one time united in war against the other races. The current campaign starts 120 years after the end of that war. After the war these "monster" races assimilated into normal society. Is there still prejudice? Of course, but these monster races are not uncommon within even the smallest settlements. Besides the "monster" races that are willing to help in the defense of a settlement are not monsters when compared to the threats outside the civilized lands.

The World is Mysterious, The World is a Fantastic Place and Monsters are Everywhere - these all fit into the same category for me. I have created a rather detailed map of the areas I'm going to use in my campaign, but the players only have a very localized map. Travel from one location to another is always a dangerous proposition, and even the most traveled and safest routes are only so if you are strong and capable. Bandits are everywhere, monsters are everywhere, and news don't travel fast. That town up north might be under siege by a troll band when the PCs finally get to visit it, and most of the population might have left or have been killed.

In addition, I use fantastic terrain in most any place. A frozen pond in the middle of a tropical forest. Floating mountains (think Hallelujah Mts from Avatar) can be encountered in some areas. A glass topped desert where the local nomads use air skiffs to travel, etc. The whole idea of something being mysterious or fantastic is that the PCs don't have all the information when they first encounter the phenomenon and they might never get all the answers. The floating mountains might be due to a cataclysmic event in the past or a vortex to the elemental chaos but they don't necessarily need to have the whole picture. The frozen pond might be because of an ice elemental, or a weird magical experiment, nobody knows for sure. The answers to some of these mysteries can easily become the source of quests that the PCs decide to pursue.

The World is Ancient - many things can play directly into this. From historical accounts of ancient civilizations, to weird tombs the PCs find, to lost civilizations nestled in remote areas of the world. All this takes a bit more work, as you will have to prepare things like this if you want to have the PCs explore them. But simple one sentence quotes are enough to create that backdrop without all the work. Also availability of magic items and strange magic items work better as showing that ancient civilizations were able to do something the new civilizations have not been able to reproduce. This will require making item crafting more rare, or certain items simply can't be crafted.

I hope these help.