Improved Grab keeps killing PCs

[Noumenon]

I am not sure the BAB thing is an issue, but the size modifiers on trip/grapple/disarm definitely are.

All I mean is if you were to remove one or the other from grapplers, you would nerf them better by taking out their BAB than their size bonus. Look at these creatures:
Large Owlbear
Large Dire Bear
Huge Monstrous Scorpion
Gargantuan Black Dragon
Purple Worm

The size modifier for these is
+4
+4
+8
+12
+12

But the BAB modifiers are
+5
+9
+7
+34
+16

It's really with the higher-CR, gargantuan monsters that the size modifiers don't matter. So I guess I shouldn't say they aren't a big deal.

 

[Noumenon]

If that is your specific problem, I'd suggest house ruling that first.

Grapple doesn't come up that often or that dangerously other than Improved Grab. So I spent a lot of time house ruling grapple (like many others) and found that my PCs got killed by grapplers anyway, because it was the grab that was the problem. If grapple is too good outside of improved grab, you have the option to just not use it, like triplocking. So house rule the grab, not the grapple.

 

[Arnwyn]

Grappling has one inherent danger for most monsters - they lose their Dex Bonus to AC. So the party just needs to make sure it's not the Rogue (if any) that is grappled, and have the monster to learn to live with a -20 penalty to grapple checks or being sneak attacked to death. Now, Plants, Undeads and Constructs won't care about this, but they are not necessarily the type of monsters that rely most on it.

And they don't threaten!

If monsters really do "keep killing PCs", then the PCs need to prepare better. If it's a Rogue, then max out Escape Artist. If it's others, CQF.

Losing their Dex to AC and no longer threatening is a major blow against monsters who Improve Grab/Grapple. When they start to grapple, that's when you can gank 'em hard.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

I made a house rule making it easier for players to escape grapples (don't add in the defender's BAB on grapple checks), but I still haven't solved the problem of monsters that Improved Grab and constrict people to death. This is almost the only way I've ever seen a character die in my year of D&D -- to owlbears, to giant bears, to scorpions, and (nearly) giant crabs and rocs.

It's not the grapple checks. It's the fact that Improved Grab cuts off the possibility of retreat. You escape, you five-foot step, they hit you next round and grab you again. You escape and run, you get AoO'd and they grab you again. You can't do anything else either like drink a potion of gaseous form. You're just screwed, it seems like. What do you do about improved grab? Scout and only fight at range?

The 3rd Edition Grapple implementation was deeply flawed for two reasons. One is that it was a bit over complicated to work out. The other problem was the 'positive feedback', in that creatures that are meant to be good at grapple get way too many bonuses. Someone came along, wrote up an Owl Bear, or Behir, or whatever, and said 'this monsters gimmick is that it will grab opponents and bring the pain. It should have Improved Grab. That much is not a problem by its self.

But the rules for Grapple are to use Bab, Str Bonus, and Size modifier. Most of the monsters that are going to be good at grab (and are therefore given Improved Grab) are also larger than man size, and as melee Brute types, they have a good BaB and a high Str score.

And when you consider that it is implemented as an opposed roll, a typical melee fighter type can probably hold up against a high Bab and a good Str score in a grapple. But the PC characters will not have bonuses for size or improved grab, so they surrender anywhere from +4 to +16 difference depending on the beast. The PC can only win such an opposed roll if the PC rolls very well and the opponent rolls very poorly.

The solution is to either cut down on the bonus modifiers to grapple or to work out a different defense mechanism. I would probably first try using the size modifiers for grapple only on the defending roll. This makes it very difficult for a human to grapple an Ogre or Giant, without making the giants own grapple check overwhelming.

Also, even if you prefer 3rd edition, you can still steal their grab resolution mechanic of 'Str of Ref or Fort' defense, were which will give your PC's a half level base for the defense value, and add either Str or Con (for Fort) or Int or Dex (for Reflex).

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

All I mean is if you were to remove one or the other from grapplers, you would nerf them better by taking out their BAB than their size bonus. Look at these creatures:
Large Owlbear
Large Dire Bear
Huge Monstrous Scorpion
Gargantuan Black Dragon
Purple Worm

The size modifier for these is
+4
+4
+8
+12
+12

But the BAB modifiers are
+5
+9
+7
+34
+16

It's really with the higher-CR, gargantuan monsters that the size modifiers don't matter. So I guess I shouldn't say they aren't a big deal.

Compare the CR to BAB - the biggest offender will be the Dragon, I think the rest will be relatively "fair".

Of course, it might still be a good idea to reduce the effect of BAB. The Dragons are terrible because they get always more HD than CR, and they have full BAB. But other monsters have similar problems, and there is still a 10 point difference at 20th level between Wizard and Fighter that is only worsened by the Fighters far higher Strength.

 

[Noumenon]

Okay, I will make sure to play up the "no AoOs, distracted with no Dex bonus, vulnerable to sneak attack" aspects of Improved Grab next time I play it. But in my experience a constricting monster can kill a PC a lot faster than the party can kill the monster.

Close-Quarters Fighting is not an answer to Improved Grab. Feats are for building a character concept, not something every character has to take to make up for one unforgiving combat subsystem.

Escape Artist doesn't do much against Improved Grab by itself, since they usually seem to hit you again before you can escape. Escape Artist + Tumble away is good -- that kind of strategy may be why other groups are not having as much trouble as we are. Maxed out Escape Artist is not very impressive next to most grapple checks however.

I would probably first try using the size modifiers for grapple only on the defending roll. This makes it very difficult for a human to grapple an Ogre or Giant, without making the giants own grapple check overwhelming.

Giving a bonus only to the defender makes it easier to avoid grapples but harder to escape them -- the opposite of what you want with Improved Grab. What I do is give the base attack bonus only to the attacker. This lets you escape from a grapple without having to roll a natural 25, or it lets you stay in and trade blows, move the grapple, etc because grapples aren't completely one-sided any more. They're swingy. It's a great house rule, it just doesn't help you survive improved grab.

 

[billd91]

Okay, I will make sure to play up the "no AoOs, distracted with no Dex bonus, vulnerable to sneak attack" aspects of Improved Grab next time I play it. But in my experience a constricting monster can kill a PC a lot faster than the party can kill the monster.

Maybe a constricting monster can kill a PC faster than his friends can kill him back... but would he continue to do so. And if so, why?

A lot of animal intelligence creatures, and smarter, will probably not keep the squeeze on a character if other PCs are able to pound on him. He'll take a couple hits and then stop concentrating on the single target or run depending on what shape he's in. What creature smarter than vermin is really going to latch on, to the exclusion of everything else, and let itself get killed? What does it gain by doing so? Animals, at least, usually do a good job of figuring out when to cut and run.

When dealing with a grappling creature, think about how you're using it. Are you using the creature as a set of stats to challenge the party or are you using it as realistically as you know how?

 

[heirodule]

Whenever a monsters grapple check starts hitting +20, I almost always pull the "Take -20 to grapple and you can keep doing other actions" rule for the monsters.

King Kong doesn't spend all his energy hugging a fighter to himself. He holds you with one hand.

 

[Arnwyn]

Close-Quarters Fighting is not an answer to Improved Grab. Feats are for building a character concept, not something every character has to take to make up for one unforgiving combat subsystem.

Normally I'd heartily agree with you... but if your OP title is actually, really true ("keeps killing PCs", emphasis mine), then some decisions need to be made.

Improved Grab/Constrict does not "keep" killing PCs in our game, so I can only shrug and provide possible suggestions.

Escape Artist doesn't do much against Improved Grab by itself, since they usually seem to hit you again before you can escape. Escape Artist + Tumble away is good -- that kind of strategy may be why other groups are not having as much trouble as we are. Maxed out Escape Artist is not very impressive next to most grapple checks however.

No, Escape Artist doesn't do much against Improved Grab by itself... but then, Improved Grab by itself doesn't do much either. It's the grapple and constrict that does, and that's what Escape Artist helps against.

IME, maxed out Escape Artist allows PCs to escape a significant portion of the time... so I'm afraid I can't comment any further.


Though I do agree that house rules (either yours or some of those suggested here) definitely will provide positive benefits to your particular group.

 

[frankthedm]

A lot of animal intelligence creatures, and smarter, will probably not keep the squeeze on a character if other PCs are able to pound on him. He'll take a couple hits and then stop concentrating on the single target or run depending on what shape he's in. What creature smarter than vermin is really going to latch on, to the exclusion of everything else, and let itself get killed? What does it gain by doing so? Animals, at least, usually do a good job of figuring out when to cut and run.

Thing is, doing that will doom the grabbed victim. Improved grab lets the monster carry the victim off.

When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight.