Improved Grab keeps killing PCs

[billd91]

Are you certain the creature has to take the -20 to be able to move? That capability is bestowed by improved grab itself in the last sentence of the ability, far removed from the rules that govern taking that -20.

I'm certain enough to rule it that way and not have any doubts that it's more fair and realistic than the alternative.

Taking the -20 allows the creature to maintain the hold without being considered grappled. If he doesn't take it, the conditions of being grappled apply - including the one that says they can't normally move. Otherwise, the creature is stuck in the grappled status and has to make a grapple check as a standard action to move half his rate.

 

[Noumenon]

If your Dm likes the grapple maneuver, or using the monsters that have improved grab, you are going to see alot more of it in game than other players. Some Dm's use Grapple to neutralize spell casters. Other Dm's prefer to use ranged attacks and readied actions to try to hit the spell caster as they cast.

Is this why other people aren't dying to grabbers? Their DMs aren't using them?

I have seen dire bears and monstrous scorpions in Goodman Games modules. We also had two hammerclaws and a giant crab in White Plume Mountain.

There are almost fifty monsters with improved grab in the SRD, so I think it would be hard to avoid using them. And it's often attached to their main or only attack, so you can't run the monster without grabbing people.

 

[frankthedm]

I'm certain enough to rule it that way and not have any doubts that it's more fair and realistic than the alternative.

Fair and what IMHO improved grab calls for are two different things. And I dare say the the other way is more realistic since it robs man sized creatures of almost any hope of extricating itself from a moving T-Rex's jaws. Indeed, the d20 size modifiers to grapple fit better in gritty horror than heroic fantasy, since they favor big monsters so much over medium victims.

 

[Hussar]

Noumenon - to be honest, I've found the same as you. Grapple Monsters are DEADLY. Just far more deadly than their CR would lead you to believe.

I just ran a fight with an elite, advanced T-Rex. His grapple check was an autowin vs any PC in my group of 7 and autokill in two rounds with the swallow. The only thing that saved the part was a group of mooks running interference and getting killed. Druid's animal companion died without even making an attack after getting grabbed by an AOO.

Or, look at a behir. Why would I release a victim? If I hold, I get two shots of rake every round. I'm going to obliterate a PC in a round or maybe two and then move on to the next one.

To me, it makes no sense that a grapple monster would establish a hold and then let go just because someone was beating on it. Unless he's in real danger of dying very soon, most creatures aren't going to let go.

Just another gaming story - when I ran the World's Largest Dungeon, in the first region, there are a number of darkmantles. Those things are VICIOUS. Hit, grapple, constrict all in the first round of combat? Dead 1st level and even a lot of 2nd level PC's PDQ. Three or four darkmantles can easily be a TPK for low level parties.

 

[billd91]

Fair and what IMHO improved grab calls for are two different things. And I dare say the the other way is more realistic since it robs man sized creatures of almost any hope of extricating itself from a moving T-Rex's jaws. Indeed, the d20 size modifiers to grapple fit better in gritty horror than heroic fantasy, since they favor big monsters so much over medium victims.

If the TRex is going to move along at half speed for only one action, the average man-sized creature is robbed of being able to escape. The TRex is still grappled. But if that sucker is going to trot along and is able to focus on other things, then I don't see a problem with the grip being not so complete.

But ultimately, my ruling isn't simply because I think it's fair and realistic. That's just the icing on the cake. Improved grab allows the creature to avoid the grappled status by taking a penalty. Grappled status means they can't move more than 1/2 of their movement rate in the whole round. Taking the penalty voids that penalty. I think the comment about being able to move as long as they can at least drag their target is simply restating that fact, not adding more power.

 

[Arnwyn]

But ultimately, my ruling isn't simply because I think it's fair and realistic. That's just the icing on the cake. Improved grab allows the creature to avoid the grappled status by taking a penalty. Grappled status means they can't move more than 1/2 of their movement rate in the whole round. Taking the penalty voids that penalty. I think the comment about being able to move as long as they can at least drag their target is simply restating that fact, not adding more power.

I agree with you.

That's how we do it. Don't take a -20? Follow the grapple rules. Take the -20? Follow the (rest of the) Improved Grab rules.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Is this why other people aren't dying to grabbers? Their DMs aren't using them?

I have seen dire bears and monstrous scorpions in Goodman Games modules. We also had two hammerclaws and a giant crab in White Plume Mountain.

There are almost fifty monsters with improved grab in the SRD, so I think it would be hard to avoid using them. And it's often attached to their main or only attack, so you can't run the monster without grabbing people.

And how many monsters does the SRD have that lack that ability? Its not the quantity of monsters in the SRD that matters, it is more a question of how frequently the DM uses them relative to the other monsters. If you see one crop up once every 6 or so games, that is one thing. If they show up once very 2 games, or if you go through an adventure that has you encounter them in say, 6 out of 10 combats, that is another.

It also depends on the way that the fights are set up. If the DM is using only one such monster as a solo, then there is a good chance it gets dog piled and murdered before any of the PC's die. If there are enough to grapple multiple party members, that is another ball of wax.

D&D is a very large game, and each players experience over his gaming career is going to be fairly unique. Even if you have two DM's running the same adventure, you have to account for the party configuration and the spell selections, and equipment / magic items present. The unique experience for each game is a strong point of the game, but it does make comparing notes with other people over the internet that you have never played with difficult.

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[Noumenon]

And how many monsters does the SRD have that lack that ability?

Looks like about 519 if you count all the elementals, hydras, and dragons (some of the dragons have Snatch, though). So the default if you picked at random would be 1/10 combats with improved grab.

If you see one crop up once every 6 or so games, that is one thing.

If they show up every six games and kill someone every time, you'll start to notice. I'm sure some groups have people die a lot more than once per six games, but in mine we're more likely to switch characters without dying.

 

[Hussar]

Y'know, I almost feel like 3e could have been really well served by having a sidebar in the Monster Manual to give advice on how to use certain creatures. Big Grapplers, Save or Die, non combat monsters like Dryads, and a few other goodies are kinda nasty traps for novice DM's. If you don't really pay attention carefully when you use these creatures, you wind up having really unexpected results.

I mean, if I throw a CR par creature at the party, I shouldn't expect to kill a PC. I should expect a fairly easy fight. No one really should be in real danger of dying. But, with big grapplers, it can get out of hand very, very quickly. Particularly if you use multiple grapplers.

 

[billd91]

I mean, if I throw a CR par creature at the party, I shouldn't expect to kill a PC. I should expect a fairly easy fight. No one really should be in real danger of dying.

I think that assumption is wrong. A CR par creature should take about 20% of their resources. In a 5 member party, that would be an adventurer.