Improved Grab keeps killing PCs

[Wolfwood2]

I think everybody's missing the forest for the trees. The problem isn't that a grappled character remains grappled. The problem is the shut-down nature of a grapple. A grappled character can't cast most of their spells, probably can't attack with their weapons, and pretty much can't do anything without making a grapple check.

For a fix, just change assumptions about what being grappled means. Assume that a caster can easily work an arm free for somatic and material components. Assume that a fighter can pull back with his sword arm enough to whack an enemy with his sword. Assign an attack penalty, sure, but let them continue acting. As long as a PC can still do things, not being able to escape from the grapple is frustrating without being the end of the encounter for them.

 

[boolean]

Per an investigation I did, enlarging PCs or Easy Escape or giving them opposed attack rolls isn't going to help because it is the BAB -- not the size or strength modifiers -- that accounts for most of the advantage in grapples.

In many cases, especially at low levels, Enlarging one or two people before the grab starts helps more than you might realize.

From the Monster Manual:"Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature."

So, if you see a large grab-type monster, enlarge the fighter and get him to stand in the way.

 

[Hussar]

I gotta admit, I love the idea of ditching improved grab in favor for some other ability. Tie this is with Bo9S and I think you could have a winner. Instead of Imp Grab, dip into the Setting Sun maneuvers and pick an appropriate throw.

Hrm, thanks for that. I definitely like that idea. Instead of the big critter just grabbing you, he grabs you and slams you to the ground. You're not grappled, but you take boat loads of damage. Sweet.

 

[catsclaw227]

When I read (and thoroughly enjoy I might add) these discussions on EnWorld, it always makes me start to think... and I am starting to think that if I ever play or DM a 3.x compatible game, it would be Pathfinder.

I am currently (really) enjoying the 4e DMing experience, so I am not sure when that would be, but I have pre-ordered the Pathfinder hardback.

/threadjack...?

 

[frankthedm]

Hrm, thanks for that. I definitely like that idea. Instead of the big critter just grabbing you, he grabs you and slams you to the ground. You're not grappled, but you take boat loads of damage. Sweet.

Agreed. When i was tweaking the Farranth from Dungeon magazine #83 i tried this sort of attack out.

Faranth Grab (Ex): If a faranth hits with its tentacles, it rolls an opposed grapple check as if it had successfully initiated a grapple attempt. If the Faranth wins the opposed grapple check, it can conduct the grapple normally, or it can dash the victim against the ground or other hard surface, dealing 2d6+3 damage as an immediate action. This ends the grapple prematurely and places the victim in a space adjacent to the faranth of the faranth's choosing. No AoOs are incurred by this victim's change of placement.

 

[Noumenon]

In many cases, especially at low levels, Enlarging one or two people before the grab starts helps more than you might realize.

From the Monster Manual:"Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature."

So, if you see a large grab-type monster, enlarge the fighter and get him to stand in the way.

I knew about that, but only thought about it in the context of medium-sized Oozes.

This thread is getting more and more convincing the longer it goes -- it's just hard at first, having been in the experience several times of PCs who are grabbed and just have no chance of escaping at all, to believe everyone else isn't dying this way.

IME, maxed out Escape Artist allows PCs to escape a significant portion of the time... so I'm afraid I can't comment any further.

If you are a PC facing a CR 4 Owlbear at level four and you have 16 Dex, you have Escape Artist +10 and it has grapple +14 -- 33% odds to win. This is the best case.

CR 7 Dire Bear, Esc Art +13 and grapple +23. 12% chance to win.

CR 7 scorpion, +13 Esc Art versus grapple +21. 19% odds.

CR 12 purple worm, +19 Esc Art versus grapple +40. Completely impossible.

Maxed out escape artist plus Grease is barely good enough. And maxed out escape artist is typically three to six points higher than your grapple check. That's why I always thought grapple was broken, it's ludicrously hard to escape untrained and you don't even have good odds when specially trained.

Maybe a constricting monster can kill a PC faster than his friends can kill him back... but would he continue to do so. And if so, why?

Because it's better to auto-hit every turn than risk missing. Because you have three people hitting on you instead of four. Because good strategy in general is to concentrate all your fire on one target until it's dead, and then turn to the next. It's the fact that improved grab monsters lack any other attack they would reasonably do that leads to them killing so often. The throw/slam maneuver is a great option.

 

[billd91]

Because it's better to auto-hit every turn than risk missing. Because you have three people hitting on you instead of four. Because good strategy in general is to concentrate all your fire on one target until it's dead, and then turn to the next. It's the fact that improved grab monsters lack any other attack they would reasonably do that leads to them killing so often. The throw/slam maneuver is a great option.

This is based on whose best strategy? The DM's when it comes to challenging the PCs? Or the creature's, whose main goal in life is to survive? Is the creature really thinking that it's better to concentrate on one target until it's dead... and not answering to the pounding it's receiving from the target's fellows? Should it be to ensure its own survival?

FranktheDM is right that a good strategy is to grab and run. But then, he's using his improved grab at a -20 to exempt himself from the grappling condition which otherwise mandates no movement. Improved grab is powerful, but creatures in the conditions you describe are probably going to be taking that -20, and that's a big difference.

There are times when I've seen people writing about their concerns with creature special abilities being too powerful. But they often seem to be approaching the the monster like it's just a framework of numbers, a piece on the chessboard, a sprite in a video game, an encounter designed to deplete a certain amount of resources to set up the pace of the game, and not a living creature with appropriate intelligence, instincts, and motivations.

 

[Noumenon]

I kind of see your point that if me and my four friends went bear hunting and it grabbed me and my stick, it might switch to the guy with the pellet rifle after a couple good stings. If it believes the person it has is just as dangerous, though, letting him go is like being an anaconda that gets you between its coils, squeezes you for six seconds, then lets you go and swims off to squeeze your friend for six seconds. Crush them to death first, then deal with the rest the same way.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

This thread is getting more and more convincing the longer it goes -- it's just hard at first, having been in the experience several times of PCs who are grabbed and just have no chance of escaping at all, to believe everyone else isn't dying this way.

Not everyone is using the same DM as your group. As with all table top games, there is a big influence from the human element that will determine what you typically see in game. If your Dm likes the grapple maneuver, or using the monsters that have improved grab, you are going to see alot more of it in game than other players. Some Dm's use Grapple to neutralize spell casters. Other Dm's prefer to use ranged attacks and readied actions to try to hit the spell caster as they cast.

More generally, Dm's tend to have a favorite combination of monsters and combat tactics that they like to run. It is difficult at times to remember that what you see in the game every time you play is not necessesarily what everyone else is seeing.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[frankthedm]

FranktheDM is right that a good strategy is to grab and run. But then, he's using his improved grab at a -20 to exempt himself from the grappling condition which otherwise mandates no movement. Improved grab is powerful, but creatures in the conditions you describe are probably going to be taking that -20, and that's a big difference.

Are you certain the creature has to take the -20 to be able to move? That capability is bestowed by improved grab itself in the last sentence of the ability, far removed from the rules that govern taking that -20.

Improved Grab

If a creature with this special attack hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required.


Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a -20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents.


A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).


When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight.