Imroved Trip and AoOs

[Darth Malakh]

I bet this has been asked before but I admit I'm just too lazy to look for it.

So how's it if I (having the Improved Trip feat) trip someone who's just provoked an AoO due to silly movement or something similar. Do I get to whack him for free as stated in the feat description or does it work like cleave (which I assume you don't benefit from when making AoOs)?



ANSWER or be PUNISHED...or something

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

You get your free follow-up attack.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Do I get to whack him for free as stated in the feat description or does it work like cleave (which I assume you don't benefit from when making AoOs)?

You get your free attack, and it works like Cleave.

Cleave works on AoOs just fine, as written.

The key to remember with Improved Trip is that you get to attack as if you hadn't used it for the trip. With an AoO, you get to make a melee attack... which you could use to trip, or to hit him. When you trip, Imp Trip lets you make an attack as if you hadn't used it for trip; 'hit him' was a legal use of the attack, so no problem.

If you have a feat that says "When an opponent does X, you may make a free trip attack", and the opponent does X, you get a free attack that can only be used to trip. Once you succeed, Imp Trip lets you make an attack as if you hadn't used your attack to trip... but the only thing you're allowed to do with the attack is trip, so unless you want to trip him again while he's prone (pointless), you can't actually use that attack for anything.

-Hyp.

 

[Darth Malakh]

Well, thanks. That is going to be...useful information to me *snicker*

 

[argo]

Well, thanks. That is going to be...useful information to me *snicker*

Gee, looks like somebody just discovered the joys of reach weapons and Imp Trip.

Enjoy yourself

 

[shilsen]

Gee, looks like somebody just discovered the joys of reach weapons and Imp Trip.

Enjoy yourself

Yup. Especially until you discover that Improved Trip doesn't prevent your enemy counter-tripping if you fail to trip, and that the +4 bonus from the feat doesn't help you resist trip attempts

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Btw, since this thread is here all convenient and all, I could use some clarification on this, as a PC in my game currently took Improved Trip. Tell me if I've got the following scenario correctly.

PC1 has Improved Trip.
PC2 has Combat Reflexes, and an 18 dex.

PC1 and PC 2 are both standing next to a baddie.

PC1 can attempt to trip him, either with an unarmed melee touch attack (and not provoke an AoO, despite not having Improved Unarmed Strike, due to having Improved Trip) or with a melee touch attack with a special tripping weapon. In either case, he gets a +4 to his check (due to having Imp. Trip), and possibly another bonus if using a tripping weapon that provides one.

If PC1 doesn't succeed at the trip attack, and PC1 used a tripping weapon, he can drop it, and the baddie doesn't get to try and trip back. If he used an unarmed melee attack, however, the baddie gets a counter-trip attempt, even though PC1 has Improved Trip.

If PC1 does succeed at the trip attack, the baddie falls prone, and PC1 gets another attack on the now prone baddie (who thus has a -4 to AC) immediately, as with a Cleave attack.

On the baddie's turn, he can attempt to get up, which is a move action, and both PC1 and PC2 get AoOs on him for doing so.

Is this all correct?

And is there an official ruling on the PC1 using his AoO to trip the baddie again while he's trying to stand up?

 

[3d6]

AoOs occur before the action that triggers them. The sequence would be:

• Baddy declares he is going to get up.
• PC takes his AoO, before the baddie begins to get up.
• Baddie gets up.

EDIT: I just looked up the rules of AoOs, and I can't find anything to support my interpretation. So, just ignore me. The rule is

An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character’s turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character’s turn).

and that doesn't really help much.

 

[shilsen]

EDIT: I just looked up the rules of AoOs, and I can't find anything to support my interpretation. So, just ignore me.

Well, this answer from the 3.5 FAQ should help (depending on how much credence you give you FAQ, of course):

All attacks of opportunity happen before the actions that trigger them (see Chapter 8 in the Player’s Handbook). When you make an attack of opportunity against someone who’s
getting up, your target is effectively prone, and therefore cannot be tripped. You could ready an action to trip a prone foe after he gets up, however.

 

[Hypersmurf]

And is there an official ruling on the PC1 using his AoO to trip the baddie again while he's trying to stand up?

The 3.5 Main FAQ has this to say:

When a character gets up from prone, when does the
attack of opportunity take place? When he is still prone?
When he is standing? Can the attacker choose when to
attack? In one case, the attacker can get a +4 bonus to hit.
In the other, he can make another trip attack.

All attacks of opportunity happen before the actions that
trigger them (see Chapter 8 in the Player’s Handbook). When
you make an attack of opportunity against someone who’s
getting up, your target is effectively prone, and therefore cannot
be tripped. You could ready an action to trip a prone foe after
he gets up, however.

Of course, the natural response to this is "But what about the AoO provoked by casting a spell? If the AoO happens before the Cast a Spell action, the caster is not damaged while casting a spell, and thus no Concentration check is necessary. If a Concentration check is necessary, it means the AoO happened after the Cast a Spell action was initiated, but before it was resolved... and therefore when you get an AoO on someone who is standing up, it occurs after they have begun to stand, and so you should be abel to Trip them again!"

The answer you receive is "Oh, spells are different."

-Hyp.