D&D 5E In Defense of the Lore Wizard

Leatherhead

Possibly a Idiot.
Because Someone had to do it. :p

Actually it's because the lore wizard is too good of a concept to pass over due to problems, but whatever.

What do I mean by that?
Firstly, it's a generalist Wizard, something noticeably lacking from 5e.
Secondly, it's one of the few cases where a character can be smarter than the person playing it, which is really needed for a class like the Wizard, who is supposed to boast lots of brainmeats.
Thirdly, it interacts with the Wizards spellbook in a meaningful way, even during combat, which is really something no other wizard even attempts to do.

Now, lets talk about the subclass and its abilities.

Lore Master
This ability does two things:
Grants to essentially expertise in whatever INT based lore skills you have.
Lets you use INT on your initiative check.

The first is thematic, and at first glace it's a ribbon, but in actuality it's the backbone of the subclass. The general idea being: You see a monster, you get a lore check on the monster, then you exploit the monster's weaknesses. This is what allows the character to be smarter than the player, because lots of people don't know everything there is to know about D&D, but this lore master is a nerd who reads books so they know some things (well sometimes, they can still fail the check). Of course, it also works out of combat too, which is nice. Some would argue this steps on the toes of the Rogue, but really the ship of giving out extra bonuses to some skills has long since sailed away from Rogueport.

The second bit, is largely unnecessary. It's vaguely reminiscent of mechanics from previous editions that allowed players to use INT in place of DEX, but even those mechanics tended to stop short of applying to initiative checks. So it's mostly unprecedented (at least for anything looking like a wizard)

The verdict, scrapping the second part is fine. But the first bit is what drives everything.

Spell Secrets
This ability also does two things, both of which are related to exploiting the weaknesses of creatures.

Firstly, it lets you change the damage type of a level 1 or greater spell to another damage type.
Secondly, it lets you change the saving throw of a level 1 or greater spell to another saving throw.

The first bit causes concern for a few reasons. But really, they are mostly knee-jerk reactions.
Only 20 monsters in the MM have a vulnerability, meaning it isn't going to be a reliable source of extra damage, only a reliable source of doing normal DPR despite resistances. A common discussion point is “Force damage is too OP!” Which dismisses the fact that you don't even need force or even radiant damage to bypass every resistance in the game. The other common complaint is that Sorcerers exist, which isn't really legitimate reason to stop a Wizard subclass from doing things, only a reason to take a long hard look at the Sorcerer, much like how they revised the Ranger.

Other people say that being able to swap damage types on every spell you memorize when you cast them is too much, and well, that's a fair point. The way spellcasting works in 5e already lets you hedge your bets by memorizing a handful of damage spells and just casting them in higher level spell slots to help make up for a bad pick that day. Making it so you only need to memorize one damage spell then swap it out as you cast it, allows the player to focus all of those freed up spell slots on whatever else they can possibly want, which has huge implications. Limiting this part of the ability to a short rest isn't unwarranted, especially to prevent dips from the elemental themed subclasses who would love for everything to be one elemental damage type, but limiting it any farther is too much.

The second bit however, can be outright broken. Using STR or DEX saves on Hold Person, for example, can permanently lock down a target with no chance of escaping. The very concept of the ability should be higher level, if not a daily resource. And needs some way to avoid the hold person problem (like reverting to the normal save on subsequent rounds). That doesn't mean it should go away, it does fit the idea of “hitting the target where it hurts” but it does need a nerf of some kind.

Alchemical Casting.
Aside from having an esoteric name, this is basically metamagic via convergent mechanics. Burning spell slots instead of points to buff up your spells.

It has three parts:
1st level slots grant extra “AoE” force damage. I say “AoE” because it has some interesting interactions with Magic Missile of all things, allowing you to have a 100% accurate multi-minion-swater with IFF technology. Granted, 11d4+11+22d10 total damage sounds like a mountains worth, but you are only dealing 15~ average damage to any individual target, so good for minion cleanup, not really good for anything else.

2nd level slots give you a range of 1 mile, for reasons. I got nothing. This is just absurd. You could use this to take out an entire army at once.

3rd level slots give you a +2 bonus to your saving throw DC. At first blush this is unnecessary given Spell Secrets. But it can be used in conjunction with that ability to make sure the target isn't making that saving throw.

To be honest, this is completely unnecessary. It theoretically represents the wizard having mastery of magic, which is kind of the theme of the entire subclass, but all the other abilities cover that nicely, and all this does is cause problems it seems. Some problems being worse than others, obviously. For a quick replacement, you could pop the second bit of Spell secrets up to this level, after you fix the problems of that ability.

Prodigious Memory

This is hands down the most wizardly ability ever. And one of the main reasons I would like to see this subclass see the light of day. And I haven't seen much in the way of complaints about this, though that might be due to people freaking out over the other aspects.

You swap one of your prepared spells out as a bonus action, once per rest. It's so simple, yet so perfectly intuitive that you have to wonder if all wizards shouldn't have this.

Master of Magic.
You can cast spell of whatever class once per day, providing you have the spell slot for it.
Some people have said this is more powerful than Wish, I disagree, it's more like Limited Wish of previous editions, but with access to higher level spells. It nets you access to three spells most other wizards won't have even limited access too: Mass Heal, Storm of Vengeance, and True Resurrection.

Realistically though, this ability is going to be used to grab a spell from a spell list your Wizard doesn't have, on the rare occasion that it's absolutely necessary, such as casting Resurrection on the Cleric. And it doesn't need to have access to spells higher than 7th level for that kind of thing to still be true. Granted, most people don't even play at a level where such a thing will even be a consideration, but it's nice to future proof your work.

Normally I wouldn't do an entire thread about one subclass like this, but this one is generating lots of discussion, so feel free to discuss.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Hawk Diesel

Adventurer
My problem with this subclass is that it, as you mentioned in your post, seems to step on the sorcerer's toes. Now, mind you, that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Each archetype seems to be built so that everyone kind of steps on everyone's toes.

My main issue with the archetype is that it seems to do metamagic better than a sorcerer ever could, and be a better sorcerer than a sorcerer. For example, the swapping out of energy types. I have house ruled a metamagic option to allow sorcerers to do this, but it costs a resources. Something like this should equally cost a resource for the Lore Master, whether it be an additional spell slot/cast at a higher spell slot, or a limited per rest ability.

The swapping out of Save type seems really powerful. If anything, even given it is a once per long rest ability, it should be higher level and come with increasing the spell slot needed or expending an additional spell slot to use. It's just too good otherwise.

With Alchemical Casting, the first one is a better version of the Empowered spell metamagic. Empowered spell requires you to reroll the dice and use them regardless of the new roll, meaning that the rolls will essentially average out giving no real mechanical advantage unless you rolled a lot of 1's and 2's. Meanwhile, this has only a marginally higher cost (1 sorcery point versus a 1st level spell slot = 2 sorcery points), but you will ALWAYS be guaranteed to do more damage, adding damage 2d10 force damage, ensuring that it this damage isn't likely to be resisted.

The 1 mile range is also ridiculous. Just absurd. How would you even get line of sight from that distance, as most spells require? While the cost is greater (1 sorcery point versus a 2nd level slot = 3 sorcery points), the order of magnitude between doubling spell range (generally anywhere between 30' - 240') and 1 mile is HUGE.

The adding +2 for spell save DC seems fine. It's inline with Heighten Spell (advantage vs +2 is negligible), but also costs more (3 sorcery points versus 3rd level slot = 5 sorcery points).

Prodigious Memory is the primary ability that I am ok with.

Master of Magic I am NOT ok with. Wizards, as they are, already get to add an astounding 44 spells to their spell book by level 20 without taking into account the potential to add more spells from acquired treasure. They already get a TON of spells they can choose from. Sorcerers, on the other hand, max out at 15 SPELLS! Wizards already have the variety and can prepare up to 10 more spells at level 20 than a sorcerer will ever know. They already have incredible flexibility. And now, with this one ability, they get even more, at will, once per day.

I know you've already mentioned that comparisons to the sorcerer maybe warrant a look at the sorcerer as a class. But I disagree. The subclass is clearly based on the flexible ways of casting that are the hallmark of the sorcerer, and in many ways this subclass outclasses the sorcerer. But even without bringing comparisons to the sorcerer, one only has to look at the other wizard archetypes to know that this is way outside the power baseline. For one, each of the Lore Master levels grants multiple abilities, whereas most of the core wizard archetypes are pretty solidly one ability per level. While I am not ready to do an indepth analysis of how each core wizard archetype stacks up against the lore master, at first glance each of the lore master levels is more powerful and useful than many of the abilities of equal level from the competing archetypes.
 

This is hands down the most wizardly ability ever. And one of the main reasons I would like to see this subclass see the light of day. And I haven't seen much in the way of complaints about this, though that might be due to people freaking out over the other aspects.

You swap one of your prepared spells out as a bonus action, once per rest. It's so simple, yet so perfectly intuitive that you have to wonder if all wizards shouldn't have this.

More like the least wizardly ability ever. Wizards are all about thinking proactively ahead and being prepared. Think layers and layers of contingency plans here. If you need to swap your spells out on the fly because you didn't have the right ones prepared, you're a dead wizard, or deserve to be. Harry Dresden is frowning at you from his (open) grave, and so is Merlin of Chaos (son of Corwin of Amber).

Being a bad wizard is not something that should be encouraged via class features.

Some people have said this is more powerful than Wish, I disagree, it's more like Limited Wish of previous editions, but with access to higher level spells. It nets you access to three spells most other wizards won't have even limited access too: Mass Heal, Storm of Vengeance, and True Resurrection.

Not to mention little tricks like stealing Conjure Fey from druids so you can conjure yourself up a (Planar Bound) hag coven to throw lightning bolts and Counterspell for you; or stealing Revivify so you can cast a nice little Contingency: Revivify on yourself ("if I've been dead for more than forty-five seconds, Revify me"). Remember, wizarding is about foresight and preparation. ("One can have only as much preparation as he has foresight.") Look for ways to use wizarding abilities proactively.

Before going into a big fight, you can cast the 7th level spell Regenerate on yourself to make yourself quasi-unkillable (heal back to 1 HP at the start of each of your turns). A normal wizard could do that, sure, via Wish... but you can cast Regenerate and still Shapechange into an ancient white dragon with your 9th level slot; or cast Regenerate and Foresight both on yourself if you prefer to keep your concentration slot open.
 
Last edited:

Hawk Diesel

Adventurer
More like the least wizardly ability ever. Wizards are all about thinking proactively ahead and being prepared. Think layers and layers of contingency plans here. If you need to swap your spells out on the fly because you didn't have the right ones prepared, you're a dead wizard, or deserve to be. Harry Dresden is frowning at you from his (open) grave...

Just finished book 4 in the series, and this is spot on! HAHAHA!
 

I know you've already mentioned that comparisons to the sorcerer maybe warrant a look at the sorcerer as a class. But I disagree. The subclass is clearly based on the flexible ways of casting that are the hallmark of the sorcerer, and in many ways this subclass outclasses the sorcerer. But even without bringing comparisons to the sorcerer, one only has to look at the other wizard archetypes to know that this is way outside the power baseline. For one, each of the Lore Master levels grants multiple abilities, whereas most of the core wizard archetypes are pretty solidly one ability per level. While I am not ready to do an indepth analysis of how each core wizard archetype stacks up against the lore master, at first glance each of the lore master levels is more powerful and useful than many of the abilities of equal level from the competing archetypes.

Most of the other wizard archetypes also have one or more "meh" levels and only one or two awesome abilities. E.g. most people find Necromancer's 2nd and 10th level abilities well-nigh useless (there are some fun ways to use Grim Harvest e.g. with Vampiric Touch, but they never add up to something really good, just fun and different); the Evoker's Potent Cantrip ability practically a ribbon. The Lore Master has four abilities, any one of which is awesome-tier.
 

Leatherhead

Possibly a Idiot.
More like the least wizardly ability ever. Wizards are all about thinking proactively ahead and being prepared. Think layers and layers of contingency plans here. If you need to swap your spells out on the fly because you didn't have the right ones prepared, you're a dead wizard, or deserve to be. Harry Dresden is frowning at you from his (open) grave, and so is Merlin of Chaos (son of Corwin of Amber).

Being a bad wizard is not something that should be encouraged via class features.

This attitude is exactly the reason why this kind of subclass is necessary. You shouldn't have to play 4th dimensional Go in order to be an effective wizard. Just like you don't need to be an Olympian Weightlifter to play a Barbarian.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Revivify trick doesn't work, or is at least heavily dependent on DM fiat: You need ten minutes to cast Contingency, and you are only able to cast the spell from Master of Magic for a maximum of 6 seconds.
 
Last edited:

Dualazi

First Post
Hawk Diesel and Hemlock have really brought most of the points I wanted to make to bear, but yeah, in my opinion there’s little to salvage here.

From a conceptual point of view, this guy just exists to both steal the sorcerer’s thunder while simultaneously fixing a huge number of wizard weaknesses. As Hemlock noted, the wizard’s spell prep is designed to be a double-edged sword; huge potential for power, and equal potential to screw yourself if you do it poorly. The lore wizard turns it into pure power in multiple ways and obviates virtually all possibility of error.

While he doesn’t have twinning capability (and the prevalence of this as the last bastion of sorcerer relevance is worth discussing as well), the Lore wizard essentially gets 5 meta-magic options (type change, save swap, force damage, range, DC increase) at a time when the sorcerer has a piddling 2. In fact, I don’t think the sorcerer ever catches up to this, save maybe at level 20. Regardless of whether or not the options are good or not (and they are), this should be huge cause for alarm.

Prodigious memory is probably the least of a problem in a vacuum, this is true. But as it stands it simply combos too well with all of the other junk the Lore wizard gets.

Master of Magic: Yeah, no, absolutely not in virtually any incarnation. As I mentioned in my initial response in the UA thread, this is an ability that was likewise present in Pathfinder, one of the crunch-heaviest incarnations of D&D ever, and it was considered top tier for years (and still might be). This ability is simply broken, full stop, end of story. It gives incredible utility/campaign flexibility, it can be used on the fly in combat, and there are no downsides to its use. This is the stuff that wrecks campaigns, in my experience, it’s an option with limitless potential that scales with every single spell-list expansion that occurs within the 5e lifetime

Basically the class has way too many incredibly powerful options that synergize way too well with each to ever see the light of day. I also don’t think it changes the way a wizard plays, so much as it just makes it better numerically.
 

machineelf

Explorer
You don't have to convince me. It's a great wizard build, and maybe the most useful and powerful wizard subclass. I was sold when I saw Prodigious Memory. That by itself is maybe the most important wizard trait a wizard can have.
 
Last edited:

cbwjm

Seb-wejem
I really do like this subclass and I don't consider the abilities of a single subclass that has abilities reminiscent of another class to really be stepping on its toes.

Lore Master
Expertise allows the loremaster to be an actual loremaster. The INT mod to Initiative is a nice bonus to represent him being able to assess the situation quickly and react to it.

Spell Secrets
I'd probably drop necrotic and radiant damage and keep the others for the sole reason that they don't seem as wizardly (although, necrotic definitely has a good showing in wizard spells). The change to the saving throw is limited to 1/rest which I think is fine. I read it as the initial saving throw not additional saves although this might just need clarification.

Alchemical Casting
While I like the concept, not too hot on the name. I'm a loremaster, not an alchemist. I don't find the current effects too exciting either, but I think as an ability it is fine to keep in, especially if they come up with more interesting effects. I think it is fairly limited by the wizard's spell slots. They can't freely convert spells like a sorcerer and instead have to wait until they have a short rest to recover slots. Also, it doesn't say you can use a higher level slot for a lower level effect instead it only mentions the spell slot level required which I think is a bit of a limiting factor. So, unless it has been clarified that you can, if you've burnt through your 1st level slots, no more boosting the damage of your other spells.

Prodigious Memory
I do think this is a great ability for a wizard to have. I imagine them going, "hang on guys, I have a spell that will be perfect for this situation" and then swapping it out.

Master of Magic
This is a great ability, but, I don't know every spell available in 5e. Most likely I would keep a small list of generally useful spells to use with this because I'm not going to halt play to go through the player's handbook looking for a spell.
 

Kobold Stew

Last Guy in the Airlock
Supporter
Lore Master could actually produce a really cool alt-Necromancer, if one wanted it: not necc. an undead-raiser, but someone whose spells rot the flesh of all within a 30' sphere (Fireball with Spell Secrets), or which fire bone fragments into their victims (Magic Missile with Alchemical Casting and Spell Secrets).

Every damage spell becomes necrotic.
 

Remove ads

Top