D&D 5E In Defense of the Lore Wizard

Mephista

Adventurer
Isn't the life cleric, champion fighter, and thief rogue meant to represent the general version of those classes? :erm:
If that's true, then the Evoker is the "general" wizard. That's the one in the Basic book, after all, and a blaster-wizard is the stereotype.

A true generalist, I suppose, would focus on manipulating the innate abilities of a class. Rather than a life cleric, we'd have a "Divine Channel and Miracle" cleric that could use the innate abilities of the cleric class better than anyone else. A "general" wizard will focus on manipulating wizard class features. And so on.
 
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Valetudo

Explorer
Because Someone had to do it. :p

Actually it's because the lore wizard is too good of a concept to pass over due to problems, but whatever.

What do I mean by that?
Firstly, it's a generalist Wizard, something noticeably lacking from 5e.
Secondly, it's one of the few cases where a character can be smarter than the person playing it, which is really needed for a class like the Wizard, who is supposed to boast lots of brainmeats.
Thirdly, it interacts with the Wizards spellbook in a meaningful way, even during combat, which is really something no other wizard even attempts to do.

Now, lets talk about the subclass and its abilities.

Lore Master
This ability does two things:
Grants to essentially expertise in whatever INT based lore skills you have.
Lets you use INT on your initiative check.

The first is thematic, and at first glace it's a ribbon, but in actuality it's the backbone of the subclass. The general idea being: You see a monster, you get a lore check on the monster, then you exploit the monster's weaknesses. This is what allows the character to be smarter than the player, because lots of people don't know everything there is to know about D&D, but this lore master is a nerd who reads books so they know some things (well sometimes, they can still fail the check). Of course, it also works out of combat too, which is nice. Some would argue this steps on the toes of the Rogue, but really the ship of giving out extra bonuses to some skills has long since sailed away from Rogueport.

The second bit, is largely unnecessary. It's vaguely reminiscent of mechanics from previous editions that allowed players to use INT in place of DEX, but even those mechanics tended to stop short of applying to initiative checks. So it's mostly unprecedented (at least for anything looking like a wizard)

The verdict, scrapping the second part is fine. But the first bit is what drives everything.

Spell Secrets
This ability also does two things, both of which are related to exploiting the weaknesses of creatures.

Firstly, it lets you change the damage type of a level 1 or greater spell to another damage type.
Secondly, it lets you change the saving throw of a level 1 or greater spell to another saving throw.

The first bit causes concern for a few reasons. But really, they are mostly knee-jerk reactions.
Only 20 monsters in the MM have a vulnerability, meaning it isn't going to be a reliable source of extra damage, only a reliable source of doing normal DPR despite resistances. A common discussion point is “Force damage is too OP!” Which dismisses the fact that you don't even need force or even radiant damage to bypass every resistance in the game. The other common complaint is that Sorcerers exist, which isn't really legitimate reason to stop a Wizard subclass from doing things, only a reason to take a long hard look at the Sorcerer, much like how they revised the Ranger.

Other people say that being able to swap damage types on every spell you memorize when you cast them is too much, and well, that's a fair point. The way spellcasting works in 5e already lets you hedge your bets by memorizing a handful of damage spells and just casting them in higher level spell slots to help make up for a bad pick that day. Making it so you only need to memorize one damage spell then swap it out as you cast it, allows the player to focus all of those freed up spell slots on whatever else they can possibly want, which has huge implications. Limiting this part of the ability to a short rest isn't unwarranted, especially to prevent dips from the elemental themed subclasses who would love for everything to be one elemental damage type, but limiting it any farther is too much.

The second bit however, can be outright broken. Using STR or DEX saves on Hold Person, for example, can permanently lock down a target with no chance of escaping. The very concept of the ability should be higher level, if not a daily resource. And needs some way to avoid the hold person problem (like reverting to the normal save on subsequent rounds). That doesn't mean it should go away, it does fit the idea of “hitting the target where it hurts” but it does need a nerf of some kind.

Alchemical Casting.
Aside from having an esoteric name, this is basically metamagic via convergent mechanics. Burning spell slots instead of points to buff up your spells.

It has three parts:
1st level slots grant extra “AoE” force damage. I say “AoE” because it has some interesting interactions with Magic Missile of all things, allowing you to have a 100% accurate multi-minion-swater with IFF technology. Granted, 11d4+11+22d10 total damage sounds like a mountains worth, but you are only dealing 15~ average damage to any individual target, so good for minion cleanup, not really good for anything else.

2nd level slots give you a range of 1 mile, for reasons. I got nothing. This is just absurd. You could use this to take out an entire army at once.

3rd level slots give you a +2 bonus to your saving throw DC. At first blush this is unnecessary given Spell Secrets. But it can be used in conjunction with that ability to make sure the target isn't making that saving throw.

To be honest, this is completely unnecessary. It theoretically represents the wizard having mastery of magic, which is kind of the theme of the entire subclass, but all the other abilities cover that nicely, and all this does is cause problems it seems. Some problems being worse than others, obviously. For a quick replacement, you could pop the second bit of Spell secrets up to this level, after you fix the problems of that ability.

Prodigious Memory

This is hands down the most wizardly ability ever. And one of the main reasons I would like to see this subclass see the light of day. And I haven't seen much in the way of complaints about this, though that might be due to people freaking out over the other aspects.

You swap one of your prepared spells out as a bonus action, once per rest. It's so simple, yet so perfectly intuitive that you have to wonder if all wizards shouldn't have this.

Master of Magic.
You can cast spell of whatever class once per day, providing you have the spell slot for it.
Some people have said this is more powerful than Wish, I disagree, it's more like Limited Wish of previous editions, but with access to higher level spells. It nets you access to three spells most other wizards won't have even limited access too: Mass Heal, Storm of Vengeance, and True Resurrection.

Realistically though, this ability is going to be used to grab a spell from a spell list your Wizard doesn't have, on the rare occasion that it's absolutely necessary, such as casting Resurrection on the Cleric. And it doesn't need to have access to spells higher than 7th level for that kind of thing to still be true. Granted, most people don't even play at a level where such a thing will even be a consideration, but it's nice to future proof your work.

Normally I wouldn't do an entire thread about one subclass like this, but this one is generating lots of discussion, so feel free to discuss.
I think the lore wizard is one of the actually good subclasses that came out of the ua articles. It just needs to be toned down a little.
 

ro

First Post
I think the lore wizard is one of the actually good subclasses that came out of the ua articles. It just needs to be toned down a little.

I agree. I think it is really fun!

For my Alchemical Casting modification, here is another take that makes it closer to Channel Divinity and less like Metamagic. Note that both Channel Divinity increases at 6th level and the Cleric also gets an additional class feature at 6th level.

Greater Spell Secrets
At 6th level, you learn to change the range and difficulty of your spells, preparing several slight variations of each spell. When you cast a spell, you may choose one of the following variations. You can use each variation once per rest. Beginning at 12th level, you can use each twice, and at 18th level, three times, between rests. When you finish a short or long rest, you regain your expended uses.

•Increase the spell’s range. Increase the spell's range to 1 mile. If the spell's range is Self, you may cast it on a friendly creature you can see within 1 mile.
•Increase the spell’s potency. Increase the spell’s attack roll or save DC by 2.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
IDK if it's worth mentioning, but isn't the impetus behind the Lore Master a 'generalist wizard?' In the past, specialists wizards gave up something for their specialization - the 1e Illusionist had his own list with fewer spells and only up to 7th level; the 2e & 3e specialists dealt with opposed schools. When Mearls added back school specialties as sub-sub-classes of the Mage sub-class of Wizard, he did so without using opposed schools, just minor bonuses specific to the school specialized in (because, how big benefit should you get for choosing a sub-sub-class, anyway, I suppose).

While 5e otherwise returns to tradition in a lot of ways, it's kept the Mearls-Mage vision of specialization. :shrug:

Now reason we have to stick to his vision: bring back opposed schools. The Lore Wizard doesn't need any crazy/broken class features, he just luxuriates in access to all the schools. Simple. Worked for decades. Evokes the classic game.
Add a few non-wizard spells related to the specialty school and evoke the classic illusionist sub-class, too.
 

Thurmas

Explorer
That... doesn't change anything much. You've fixed the problem of it being too sporadic (I think, if it only applies to the instance of the spell being cast it doesn't change anything), but not too spontaneous.

This however:

Spell Secrets. Starting at 2nd level, at the end of a short or long rest you may change the damage type of any number of spells of level 1 or above you have prepared. For each spell changed this way you choose the new damage type it deals.
Additionally you may change the saving throw required for one spell of level 1 or above to a stat of your choice.
These changes last until you choose to change them at the end of a short or long rest.

Probably could cut down on the wording but bleh.

The Wizard is proactive, not reactive. Therefore the ability must also be proactive, not reactive.

I think this is the right approach, and you just beat me to posting it. I would propose making it so that you can change the damage type of any prepared spell in your spell book (it doesn't apply to spells learned from other classes that aren't prepared in your spellbook), and that you can only do so during a long rest when you prepare your spells for the day (if you don't spend the time preparing your spells for the day, nothing changes).

The same goes for the the saving throw, although limited to only one spell in your spellbook and the spell retains that quality until your next long rest/spell preparation. So:


Spell Secrets. Starting at 2nd level, when you change your list of prepared spells after finishing a long rest you may change the damage type of any number of spells. If a spell deals acid, cold, fire, force, lightning, necrotic, radiant, or thunder damage you may change one damage type to another one of these damage types. The spell's damage type remains changed until you choose to change it when you prepare new spells after completing a long rest.
Additionally when you change your list of prepared spells after finishing a long rest you may choose one spell in your spellbook and change the saving throw required to a saving throw of your choice. The spell's saving throw remains changed until you choose to change it when you prepare new spells after completing a long rest. Only one spell can be prepared in this way at a time.


A little more powerful in some ways, since the saving throw change persists, but a little less in others, since you can't change damage or throws on the fly. Your changes take place during a time of study and preparation, as I think fits more with the Lore Wizard. I could see the saving throw ability being moved to and replacing the current level 6 abilities and being just fine.
 

Yunru

Banned
Banned
I think this is the right approach, and you just beat me to posting it. I would propose making it so that you can change the damage type of any prepared spell in your spell book (it doesn't apply to spells learned from other classes that aren't prepared in your spellbook), and that you can only do so during a long rest when you prepare your spells for the day (if you don't spend the time preparing your spells for the day, nothing changes).

The same goes for the the saving throw, although limited to only one spell in your spellbook and the spell retains that quality until your next long rest/spell preparation. So:


Spell Secrets. Starting at 2nd level, when you change your list of prepared spells after finishing a long rest you may change the damage type of any number of spells. If a spell deals acid, cold, fire, force, lightning, necrotic, radiant, or thunder damage you may change one damage type to another one of these damage types. The spell's damage type remains changed until you choose to change it when you prepare new spells after completing a long rest.
Additionally when you change your list of prepared spells after finishing a long rest you may choose one spell in your spellbook and change the saving throw required to a saving throw of your choice. The spell's saving throw remains changed until you choose to change it when you prepare new spells after completing a long rest. Only one spell can be prepared in this way at a time.


A little more powerful in some ways, since the saving throw change persists, but a little less in others, since you can't change damage or throws on the fly. Your changes take place during a time of study and preparation, as I think fits more with the Lore Wizard. I could see the saving throw ability being moved to and replacing the current level 6 abilities and being just fine.
I don't know, I did like the whole concept of "We're fighting this? Let me just change this here, and do this..."

I just feel like it should be actually time-consuming not simply "oh yeah, now the save's different." So the Wizard shouldn't be able to walk into a lair and on-the-spot adapt, but they should be avle to scout out the lair and, with a bit of preperation, adapt.

In short, I feel like a long rest's too restricting.
 
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Thurmas

Explorer
I don't know, I did like the whole concept of "We're fighting this? Let me just change this here, and do this..."

I just feel like it should be actually time-consuming not simply "oh yeah, now the save's different." So the Wizard shouldn't be able to walk into a lair and on-the-spot adapt, but they should be avle to scout out the lair and, with a bit of preperation, adapt.

In short, I feel like a long rest's too restricting.

I might have gone with short rest for it, but I based the entire concept around Spell Preparation, and Spell Preparation happens at the end of a long rest.
 

Yunru

Banned
Banned
I might have gone with short rest for it, but I based the entire concept around Spell Preparation, and Spell Preparation happens at the end of a long rest.
That's actually another reason I'd make it Short Rest. If you make it long rest it looses some of its impact, as the Wizard can just prepare a different spell with the wanted save.
 

ro

First Post
That's actually another reason I'd make it Short Rest. If you make it long rest it looses some of its impact, as the Wizard can just prepare a different spell with the wanted save.

Spell preparation takes "at least one minute per spell level for each spell on your list." If a Lore Wizard were required to prepare spell variations on already prepared spells, it would make sense that he could do so in less time than one minute per spell level of the spell. It is worth noting that the premise of the class is that he knows how to do this without the difficulty of relearning a new spell.

Maybe changing the damage or save type could take one round per level of the spell.

Alternatively:

There are eight different damage type options, and six save types, each spell having one already. To change a spell save, it could take an extra minute per spell level to prepare all six saves. To change a damage type, it could take a minute per spell level to prepare all eight damage types. (Damage is apparently easier to change than save type.)

In this case, spell prep takes longer, but the use of the ability in combat is just as available as the original because all varieties are prepared.
 

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