D&D 5E In Defense of the Lore Wizard

[cbwjm]

(Why would anyone cast burning hands at level 3 when they could cast fireball at level 3????) So why even compare a level 3 burning hands with a level 3 thunderwave? ...very unrealistic comparison there.....

I tried to pick aoe spells or single target spells at each level.

Level 1
Burning hands = 3d6 (10.5)
Thunderwave = 2d8 (9)

Level 2
Scorching Ray = 6d6 (21)
Melf's Acid Arrow = 6d4 (15)

Level 3
Fireball 8d6 (28)
**Really no AOE spell to compare this with at this level

Level 4
Icestorm 6d8 (27)
*a level higher and lower damage than fireball

Level 5
Cone of Cold 8d8 (36)

We could go on but the point is that fire spells just do more damage at comparable levels for when you get them and other similar spells. There may be other affects involved or whatever, but fire spells just tend to do more damage.

Lightning bolt deals the same as fireball, although I will admit it is more likely easier to hit more targets with fireball.

I think it is worth comparing spells at higher levels as well, particularly ones in comparison to an upscaled fireball spell. I think there could be plenty of occasions where casting an upscaled burning hands or thunderwave would be better than fireball, generally it comes down to location of allies and enemies, not every wizard is an evoker able to exclude their allies from the effects of a fireball.

Other spells worth looking at:
Level 2
Aganazzar's Scorcher: 3d8 fire
Shatter: 3d8 thunder
Snilloc's snowball swarm comes in a bit underpowered at only 3d6 cold

Level 4
Storm sphere: 2d6 bludgeoning to all in area (save for none) each round and 4d6 lightning 1/round for up to 1 minute. Area inside the sphere is also difficult terrain.
Vitriolic sphere: total 15d4 (37) acid

I would not be surprised if a spell called icy rays is eventually created which, unless it has an additional effect, deals the exact same damage as scorching ray except with cold damage. Fire just isn't the powerhouse that people seem to think it is and really doesn't deal more damage than other damage types, except in cases where the other spells have an additional effect that warrants a reduction in spell damage.

 

[ro]

A few have mentioned something along the lines of, "If Lore Master was official, why would anyone play anything else?"

I'd say, because it doesn't boost your survivability (abjuration) or make you crazy lucky even with the slightly better save options (divination), nor give you great summons and creativity (conjuration, illusion), etc. All the other traditions still have great things to offer.

If you really think the save changing is OP at 2nd, and that Alchemical Casting is too much like the Sorcerer, here are some thoughts:
- The Theurgy wizards get the best part of Alchemical Casting at level 2 rather than 6. Is that OP? They step on the Cleric's toes. But they do sound like fun, and I hope they make it.
- Why not move the save switching to 6th level and keep the DC decreasing with it? That would slow things down a bit and thematically make 6th level all about saves.
- Or what about letting the Lore Master at 6th pick one 2nd level feature from another tradition instead of the Sorcerer-like stuff? That would be closer to the Theurgy method.

If this would make the Lore Master too awesome, then maybe the problem is that the other traditions need updates to some of their features to make them more interesting. I think it would make sense to allow wizards to dabble in more than one specialty.

 

[Immoralkickass]

How do I know if something is stupidly OP? My DM. He allows every subclass, every UA (even Mystic!) under the sun, but he won't allow Lore Wizard.

 

[Argyle King]

The 6th level feature to me is ok, not great. Adding 11 dmg to blast spells is good, but blast spells in general are poor. Making the range one mile is sort of stupid, how many encounters have you started one mile from each other? It works both ways also, as the PC's approach the Tower of the Lich getting disintegrated from a mile away will create a bad feeling at the table, that's not good for the game. The same Lich dominating the fighter from a mile away and then attacking the players wont go over well either.

The answer to your question about how many fights start at a mile is "a lot more often with this option". If the wizard is willing to nova for it, then even large groups of enemies can be decimated from afar. You've also hit the nail on the head when you say neither team is really going to be stoked about this development. It's a corner case, but it's not like there aren't more common-use options to drop back to when mile-sniping isn't available.

Also, 11 force damage isn't bad. Average damage on fireball is 28, 31.5 if cast at 4th level. The loremaster gets to hit 39 damage with that cast, while also conserving the more valuable 4th level spell slot for other use.

I'm now envisioning an Arakkoa Loremaster flying over the land and killing people from above the clouds.

 

[Phazonfish]

I think it is worth comparing spells at higher levels as well, particularly ones in comparison to an upscaled fireball spell.

I don't think that's a great idea, Fireball is amazing when you first get it, but it scales really poorly. Not that it's not viable at higher levels, it is viable because few really good options exist for blasting and Fireballs starts out ahead of the curve so it takes a while for it to get left behind even with its poor scaling, but it seems a little unfair to say "See, fire spells don't hit that hard because this 7th level spell does more damage than that upcast 3rd level spell."

 

[dagger]

How do I know if something is stupidly OP? My DM. He allows every subclass, every UA (even Mystic!) under the sun, but he won't allow Lore Wizard.

Lol

Sorry but that is still only an opinion.

 

[Yunru]

I would be more happy with spell secrets if it could only be done as you prepare the spells. Keeps it away from stepping on the sorcerer's toes, and makes it feel more "studious adaptation" and less "Lol OP Wizzard!"

 

[Tony Vargas]

I would be more happy with spell secrets if it could only be done as you prepare the spells. Keeps it away from stepping on the sorcerer's toes, and makes it feel more "studious adaptation" and less "Lol OP Wizzard!"

Even better, have the wizard in general (or the Lore Wizard, specifically, if you really want to take him down a peg of few), prepare directly into slots, like a real Vancian caster. No spontaneous casting for you, book-boy.

 

[cbwjm]

Even better, have the wizard in general (or the Lore Wizard, specifically, if you really want to take him down a peg of few), prepare directly into slots, like a real Vancian caster. No spontaneous casting for you, book-boy.

Nah, I never liked the fire and forget spells of earlier editions, although i did tend to put up with them for the most part. I'm glad they got rid of it for the base game, it's a step in the right direction as far as I'm concerned.

 

[gyor]

Here is how I'd do the Loremaster

Keep Lore Master feature

Next feature make an knowledge skill as a bonus action against a target's deception skill (Nature for beasts, Religion for Celestials, Fiends, Unread, and Gods, Arcana for weird creatures like Abberants as well as Dragons, History for humaniods), a success gives the wizards next spell again St creature advantage or disadvantage to the creature


Advanced Scribe Scroll, once per day you can scribe a scroll during a short rest.

And lastly Generalist Double you Intelligence mod when determining how many spells you can memorize in a day.

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