Introducing a new group to PF2 vs. 4E?

[Tales and Chronicles]

Maybe go with Essentials?

I (personally) go as far as removing the Feats from the game (giving the +1/2/3 bonus to Attacks and NADs from math-fix feats at 5th, 12th and 21th level)

So,
Basic
Fighter: Knight or Slayer
Mage
Rogue (Thief)
Cleric (Warpriest)

Advanced
Ranger: Hunter or Scout
Paladin (Cavalier)
Warlock (Hexblade)
Druid (Sentinel)

 

[aramis erak]

Are there any more pros and cons I should bring to the discussion?

There are two minor editions in 4.x - 4E and 4E Essentials. There was some errata, some streamlining. While I've not run 4e, nor looked at 4eEssentials... friends who did noticed some changes.
there's also the issue of getting legit PDF from wizards may be unpalatable to some due to the recent failed OGL shenanigans. And that 4e isn't OGL, either.

 

[Retreater]

There are two minor editions in 4.x - 4E and 4E Essentials. There was some errata, some streamlining. While I've not run 4e, nor looked at 4eEssentials... friends who did noticed some changes.

I wouldn't have an issue using Essentials as an introduction to the system, but as someone experienced with 4E limiting a game to only Essentials content is like the Diet Coke of 4E.

there's also the issue of getting legit PDF from wizards may be unpalatable to some due to the recent failed OGL shenanigans. And that 4e isn't OGL, either.

I'm the only person in my group who cares about this at all. And I care a lot. But fortunately I already own what I need.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

The last time I tried to sneak in A5e elements into the ongoing 5e game, it proved a disaster. Whether starting from level 1 in A5e would take care of those issues, I don't know. I have a feeling it won't if the core game structure is the same.
I think the main problem with 5e is that the only way a monster can challenge the party is with spells (or spell-like effects), which completely overpower the group. For example, I can't reliably hit with the monster, or if I do it's something like 3 points of damage. Or I drop a fireball which kills half the party, even with successful saves. It's like there's no middle ground.

Ok I am curious, is this a weird dice roll thing? I have never had an issue with a monster not hitting the pcs nor with fireball killing half the party.

But, if I remember correctly this is a large party, 7 members or so. Combats could take quite a while in 4e unless they are pretty on the ball with their turn.

 

[overgeeked]

Are there any more pros and cons I should bring to the discussion?

Games being in print and actively supported vs so-called dead games is incredibly overblown as far as I’m concerned. People are still playing OD&D, B/X, AD&D, Classic Traveller, etc. You don’t need a game that’s in print. You need a game you like that does things you want rules for. Go with the one that’s a better fit for your group.

For me, it’s an easy choice. 4E hands down. If you do go with 4E (the far better game in my opinion), then you’ll need to adjust some things. Like early monster stats to the MM3 baseline. Halving HP and doubling damage for monsters is another popular house rule. We got to the point of using dynamic skill challenges to do some combats, especially the minor filler fights. Yeah, combat takes awhile unless you house rule things, but it’s important to remember that 4E combat works best as a cinematic set piece simulator rather than using it for every random brawl. Bosses and minibosses, use the full combat rules. Anything less than that can easily be a dynamic skill challenge or a few skill checks.

Either way, good luck.

 

[Retreater]

Ok I am curious, is this a weird dice roll thing? I have never had an issue with a monster not hitting the pcs nor with fireball killing half the party.

It's when an encounter has enemies with +3 to hit and dealing 4 hp of damage against characters with 19 AC and 30 HP that it's a problem. You just can't threaten the group with that.
But then other encounters have enemies with AoE attacks that can hit the whole party and deal an average of 30+ damage, so you're in real TPK territory.
To me, that's how the entirety of 5e monster design works. It's one extreme or another. It's like there's a gap of opponents that are 16 AC, 45 HP, +7 to hit, average 9 damage per strike. And then you need 6-7 of them and I can challenge a typical 5e party.

But, if I remember correctly this is a large party, 7 members or so. Combats could take quite a while in 4e unless they are pretty on the ball with their turn.

Our party is shrinking with players getting jobs and going off to college. We're down to 5 reliable players weekly at this stage.

 

[Retreater]

Also, what... tiers of play do you expect you and your players will be spending most of their time? Levels don't match up, but the concept of tiers do. Personally I found 4e lost some of it's strength of speed starting mid-paragon where there were too many distinct character choices.

Honestly, I don't know. Probably Heroic tier.
I don't think I've gotten any game in my history of DMing beyond 12th level.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

It's when an encounter has enemies with +3 to hit and dealing 4 hp of damage against characters with 19 AC and 30 HP that it's a problem. You just can't threaten the group with that.
But then other encounters have enemies with AoE attacks that can hit the whole party and deal an average of 30+ damage, so you're in real TPK territory.
To me, that's how the entirety of 5e monster design works. It's one extreme or another. It's like there's a gap of opponents that are 16 AC, 45 HP, +7 to hit, average 9 damage per strike. And then you need 6-7 of them and I can challenge a typical 5e party.

Our party is shrinking with players getting jobs and going off to college. We're down to 5 reliable players weekly at this stage.

5 should be a manageable number for 5e but I have used published adventures and do not feel that I have a problem with challenging a party of 4.
So, I am curious, what do you mean by challenge?

16 AC, 45 HP, +7 to hit, average 9 damage per strike

Look like a perfectly reasonable statblock for tier 2 play at the lower end. Why not just use it. You have no obligation to use the given monsters, adjust their stats to your taste.

I think you are being hard on yourself for stuff that the players do not notice and will never notice and a high crunch system will not solve your underlying problem. This is because, once upon a time, I also thought I was not challenging the party. Of course, I may be misunderstanding and your problems could be completely different.

 

[Retreater]

5 should be a manageable number for 5e but I have used published adventures and do not feel that I have a problem with challenging a party of 4.
So, I am curious, what do you mean by challenge?

Our most recent adventuring day (which was at the recommended level according to the module) went like this.
1) Our cleric didn't have to use a single healing spell.
2) The rogue did take 11 points of damage from a trap.
3) Most encounters were over before the enemies' turn came up in Initiative.
4) Enemies that have +3 to hit, 4 damage, with 4 HP. Even en masse, they're not challenging a 5th level party.

So what do I want?

• Some level of tactical play to succeed.
• Trying something other than the same thing every round that's going to obliterate your enemies.
• A little bit of fear and survival.
• Using resources, stretching abilities.

4e and PF2 can at least do these things. 5e without exhaustive house rules cannot, IME.

 

[thullgrim]

Savage Pathfinder an option? Tactical. Non combat characters still have a combat role. Base resolution is pretty light. Monsters are easy to tune in advance or on the fly. Minions/extras built in. Rise of the Runelords available immediate. Curse of the Crimson Theon available this year. Above average VTT support if necessary.

Savage Pathfinder, in my experience, is a good substitute for D&D and the groups I’ve run 5e and PF2 for both like Savage Pathfinder just as much or more in some cases.

I’d still do 4e if I had the group for it. But I thought I’d offer an alternative that might meet your needs.