Invisibility and Mind Blank vs True Seeing or See Invisibility?

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

That would actually be your eyes which gave you that information.
You cast Fireball [near] me. I am invisible. You know nothing.

I cast Detect Magic, and look away from you.
I learn nothing about you.

Just because you fail to appropriately learn from a spell doesn't mean it can be information gathering.

 

[MerakSpielman]

I cast a Fireball on you.

You die.

I am now in possession of information that I was not in possession of before I cast the spell (chiefly, that you are not immune to fire).

Don't be foolish. The information that the person is not immune to fire was not directly and magically placed inside your brain by the spell that was cast. Diviniation spells, on the other hand, tend to do that.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

But fireball isn't designated as primarily an information-gathering spell, right?

Does it matter?

I think the thing to do in addressing his argument is to take on the statement that all divination spells are designated as information-gathering spells.

To follow, if all divinations are by definition "information gathering," as far as Mind Blank is concerned, than the statement "information gathering by divination spells and effects" is redundant, and could be replaced by "divination spells and effects" without loss of meaning.

Since it was not written in such a way, we have before us three options:

1) The writer was being redundant, and knew he was doing so
2) The writer was being redundant, and didn't know he was doing so
3) The writer was not being redundant

In two out of three cases, the writer of the spell believed that there is a subset of divinations which are "information gathering" (such as locate person, locate object, status, divination, etc) and those which are not (among them, I suggest, are "sensory buffs," like see invisible and true seeing).

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Don't be foolish. The information that the person is not immune to fire was not directly and magically placed inside your brain by the spell that was cast. Diviniation spells, on the other hand, tend to do that.

Neither was the information that you were standing there, invisible, directly and magically placed inside my brain by the True Seeing spell - otherwise, I wouldn't need to look in your direction to see you.

So don't be insulting, Merak - you might not like where it takes you.

 

[moritheil]

Does it matter?



To follow, if all divinations are by definition "information gathering," as far as Mind Blank is concerned, than the statement "information gathering by divination spells and effects" is redundant, and could be replaced by "divination spells and effects" without loss of meaning.

Since it was not written in such a way, we have before us three options:

1) The writer was being redundant, and knew he was doing so
2) The writer was being redundant, and didn't know he was doing so
3) The writer was not being redundant

In two out of three cases, the writer of the spell believed that there is a subset of divinations which are "information gathering" (such as locate person, locate object, status, divination, etc) and those which are not (among them, I suggest, are "sensory buffs," like see invisible and true seeing).

Very logical. I can't say that I agree with your conclusion, however, due to the astounding number of official writers that have been confusingly redundant without meaning to be. So, while there are in fact those three logical divisons, I don't think actual examples are evenly divided between the three.

 

[MerakSpielman]

Neither was the information that you were standing there, invisible, directly and magically placed inside my brain by the True Seeing spell - otherwise, I wouldn't need to look in your direction to see you.

So don't be insulting, Merak - you might not like where it takes you.

Indeed it is magically placed inside your brain, but only when you're looking in a particular direction. There's no reason the fact that it is not omnidirectional would invalidate my point.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Indeed it is magically placed inside your brain,

Unless, of course, the spell magically enhances your eyes, in which case the information is conveyed to your brain in the usual way.

In other words, is True Seeing a HUD, or is it brainjack? The actual rules are silent on this issue, so whichever choice you make is an interpretation, and no more valid than any other.

 

[anon]

Whether the information given to you by the spell goes to your brain or your eyes doesn't seem like it really matters, does it? Either way the divination spell had given you information you didn't have before.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Whether the information given to you by the spell goes to your brain or your eyes doesn't seem like it really matters, does it? Either way the divination spell had given you information you didn't have before.

Similarly, whether the information given to you by the spell goes to your brain or your eyes doesn't seem like it really matters, does it? Either way the fireball spell has given you information you didn't have before.

 

[andargor]

Similarly, whether the information given to you by the spell goes to your brain or your eyes doesn't seem like it really matters, does it? Either way the fireball spell has given you information you didn't have before.

So does breathing.

Of course, people parted in the middle are strange.

Andargor