A Question to the Thinkers (Second IR Thread)
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Topic: (semi-IR) A question to the thinkers and philosphers out there
Edena_of_Neith
Member
Member # 1235
posted December 03, 2001 03:27 AM
This is a post related to the IR thread currently running on the ENBoard.
But this is not an IR post itself.
It is a request, for those of you who might be interested in such things, for your thoughts on a
problem that has arisen in the IR thread.
- - -
The IR is a 'what if' thread.
Long ago, as a humorous reaction to a serious thread I posted, I posted this 'what if' thread.
People answered with replies.
I thought of the situations their replies would create, then asked the 'what if' question again,
regarding the new situations.
For some people, it became very fun, and it became very fun for me, so we continued.
The Thread picked up momentum as it went along, and a story of sorts emerged out of the
hundreds of posts.
- - -
Now, however, everyone is fluxxomed.
And I do mean everyone.
For, you see, the original 'what if' was about the introduction of technology into D&D.
Well, the technology advanced, and advanced, and with technological advance came advances in
weapons.
And better and better weapons were made, until finally - and inevitably - Doomsday Weapons
appeared.
A situation now exists on the IR thread similar to the real world situation that existed between the
United States and the Soviet Union: the Balance of Terror, or M.A.D. (Mutual Assured Destruction.)
Instead of there being 2 superpowers with Doomsday Weapons, however, there are about 8 or 9
such powers in this 'what if' scenario.
All 8 or 9 face the M.A.D. scenario.
Unlike real life, however, some of the Superpowers in the 'what if' scenario are countries of evilly
aligned beings, such as illithid, who are not bound by the sanity and reason that kept our real world
from being destroyed in a nuclear holocaust.
In the 'what if' scenario, all of the powers, big and small, have convened a grand council to figure
out a Way Out of the mess they are in.
A Way Out, before Armaggedon strikes.
However, nobody has figured out a way out.
Nobody.
I must concede that perhaps there is no way out ... but then again, who am I to judge such things?
- - -
There are some real thinkers on this board, like Upper Krust, Colonel Hardisson, and many others.
The IR thread presents a puzzle to be solved, a philosophical debate as well as a argument of
expediency.
If there is anyone out there interested in jumping in, they could use your help.
Whether you jump in IC, and give your opinions IC to the council in the 'what if' scenario, or whether
you express an OOC opinion, I think they could use your help.
If you skim through the 6 pages of the Thread, you will get an idea of the monumental headache of
the massive philosophical and practical problem this 'what if' scenario poses, and the difficulties
those participating in it face.
Can you solve the mess?
Can you find the answers?
Can you get them out of the situation they have gotten themselves into?
Can you think of a 'what if' that could save them?
I am merely asking, for those who are interested.
Merely asking.
I am not starting another IR thread here - I will not reply to IR posts on this thread.
Yours Sincerely
Edena_of_Neith
[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: Edena_of_Neith ]
Posts: 1620 | From: Michigan, United States | Registered: Jan 2001 | IP: Logged
Bagguns
Member
Member # 523
posted December 03, 2001 10:54 AM
Well, I think one of the main problems you have is that the Chosen pretended to set themselves up
us a War Crimes Tribunal, when they were one of the chief causes of the conflict in the first place. No
one likes a hypocrite, so no one will listen to the Chosen pontificate.
Your problem now seems to be Mutually Assured Destruction. There are a few ways out of it some,
likely, some not at all:
1) Everyone puts aside their differences and gets along: That ain't happening, the wounds are too
fresh.
2) The gods take a hand and stop all the nonsense: More likely than above but sure to cause
resentment and it may just precipitate all out war out of spite.
3) Ao brings the pain: "All these darn mortals mucking up my world!" Of course he probably is
laughing his @#$ off right now or upbraiding the lesser gods for letting all this happen...or both. It's
very unlikely that he cares, he could just start over after all the lesser gods die out for having no
worship, so why should he?
4) The Watchman Scenario: This is very unlikely to happen but...One awe inspiring superpowerful
being manipulates events so that it seems Faerun is under attack from something "Other",
everyone unites and pushes it back after a long (years) war, finally realizing they have more in
common than not. Very unlikely.
All in all the Chosen pretty much dug a grave for Faerun from the first accusation, even if their only
intention was to get everyone together. It seems almost certain that one group or another (esp.
Illithids) will make some move to doom Faerun for all time.
[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: Bagguns ]
--------------------
Evolve or Die.
Entropy Sucks.
Posts: 194 | From: Cookstown/McGuire AFB, NJ | Registered: Dec 2000 | IP: Logged
Balsamic Dragon
Member
Member # 7615
posted December 03, 2001 11:18 AM
Let me start with a caveat that I have not read the IR thread at all. However, I wanted to post
because this sounds a lot like a campaign that I played in.
In that game, there were three nations covering the entire globe, superpowers if you will. There was
no presence of tech, but each nation had an individual means to destroy the world, if they wanted
to. (I won't get involved in the details).
Now, my character was evil, an ogre wizard from the evil country ruled by a Blue Dragon (the only
dragon in that world). She was sent to work with representatives of other countries to come up with a
way to save the world, after the assassination of the Lawmaker, the one person who had been
holding everything in detante.
The key here is that even when it doesn't make any sense for Nations to get along with each other,
Individuals often can find some common ground. My character formed bonds, of a sort, with the
neutral and good characters in the party. It certainly involved give and take on both sides, but the
fact that we were all Lawful tied it together. For example, Greg's good aligned character had to deal
with the fact that my people kept slaves, but my character came to recognize the value of treating
slaves better (and not eating them arbitrarily in order that they might be more productive.
Fantasy is all about the microcosm solution providing the macrocosm solution. So in this scenario
(which again I have not read) consider a situation where individuals from each nation are forced to
work together towards a common, but temporary, goal. The bonds formed in that process could be a
means to establish some sort of peace (and non-destruction of the world).
Balsamic Dragon
Posts: 42 | Registered: Sep 2001 | IP: Logged
Kugar
Member
Member # 1063
posted December 03, 2001 11:48 AM
Seal the plane.
No one gets in, no one gets out.
Deities can't grant spells.
No Astral or Ethereal based magic. Now start the negotiations again. Make the seal permanate
unless all Doomday technology is destroyed and is able to re-emerge if the technology resurfaces.
Most insanely powerful groups still fear utter oblivion.
Posts: 70 | From: Exton, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001 | IP: Logged
Zelda Themelin
Member
Member # 7666
posted December 03, 2001 11:54 AM
I will share no great wisdom, for I have none, but here are my thoughts.
Change started everything, and fear of that change started those wars.
"Well now, it is obvious what happens next.
Elminster, the Chosen, and the Harpers try to stop the gnomes covertly.
The gnomes take their losses, then blow up Shadowdale.
World War is then declared..."
Chosen was behind one of the starting acts, but it could have been someone else later. It would
have been somebody, that's the way these things tend to happen. Before every great change is
accepted, there has been war. And still there there are those who cannot accept changes even after
the war passes.
Chosen should set an example and work to stop the destruction they are partially responsible,
instead of playing court as fake and pointless as one set by 'Q' in Star Srek once.
There is some alternative way to stop this future destruction instead of demanding back those who
desired to leave (fairies, dragons). It should not be debate about who is responsible. It should be
about how to make things work again and save world from this destruction.
Foolish Chosen, they are doing this wrong, why don't they use their skills to help everybody find a
way to save the world with whatever means are available willingly.
Maybe somebody could make them see this kind of wisdom, and so turn this bitter debate into
something productive. They should be ready to make real sacrifises to make it happen. I don't
mean playing martyrs however, that woudn't do any good now.
Otherwise there will be only more tears...
(Sorry my bad english)
Just for fun.
Posts: 275 | From: Finland | Registered: Sep 2001 | IP: Logged
Kamikaze Midget
Member
Member # 4717
posted December 03, 2001 12:02 PM
Bah. It's Faerun. Elminster probably has known and already prepared a Protection from Neuclear
Halocaust spell.
That said, there are some theories that say that all intelligent life is doomed to repeat this cycle of
technology leading to global devestation. Perhaps some Technomancer blasts them "back to the
stone age". Perhaps the gods stop it. Perhaps one nation goes off the deep end, and the rest, in
order to preserve their lives, go after that one, until only those who wouldn't use the power for evil
are left (moral darwinism, so to speak...nobody likes evil). And perhaps Faerun is burried beneath
several feet of radioactive snow.
Of course, if this were *my* campaign, I'd have some shadowy figure stealing the secrets, making
everyone too sodding paranoid to do anything, and then have the PC's track him down, only to find
out he was destroying the arms so that he could save the world. That's what *I'd* do.
--------------------
Space Ghost: You sure you're not a leprechaun?
Denis Leary: I'm too tall to be a leprechaun
Space Ghost: Okay, okay. 'Cause I was gonna say, you're the worst leprechaun that we've ever had
on the show.
Posts: 142 | From: Madison, WI, USA | Registered: May 2001 | IP: Logged
Bagguns
Member
Member # 523
posted December 03, 2001 12:15 PM
I'm doing a campaign based on this, and my "final Solution" so to speak was...to have Mystra
sacrifice herself (soon after the modified Avatar of Karsus was cast), thereby providing a protective
shield around the Weave, mucking up all the magical power until the Mages figure out ways around
it. At greatly reduced power. She names Elistraee, Goddess of Magic, passing a bit of her power but
uses most to shield the Weave. The Chosen take on a lesser role as their patron is gone and magic
is weakened.
Then AO comes in and seeing the devastation wrought by all the warring (some of it religion based
in my campaign), limits the gods interaction with Faerun. No more avatars, no more scounds of spell
chucking clerics. Only a few Divinely Inspired.
--------------------
Evolve or Die.
Entropy Sucks.
Posts: 194 | From: Cookstown/McGuire AFB, NJ | Registered: Dec 2000 | IP: Logged
DocMoriartty
Member
Member # 8593
posted December 03, 2001 12:15 PM
You are making one statement from a misconception and I think this is causing a major problem.
Illithids are evil, yes. That does not mean they are illogical or suicidal. The illithids are geniuses.
They know that turning off the sun will kill the world. Everything will starve and eventualy it will even
starve out the Illithids. So they do have a reason not to destroy Toril.
The only powers that are a real danger are the demons. They hold no value to Toril and if they could
they may destroy the world just to hurt the devils and the various other power groups out there that
compete with them.
Beyond this there is little reason to believe that Toril will really be destroyed. Some of the races
world crushing ability are moot since they require an entire society working together. This would
never happen as it would take only a small fraction of the society looking down at his or her child
and saying "No I will not end it for them." Furthermore some of the races had powers that only really
worked as surprises. The scro could not make their asteroid attack now since the various
spelljammer fleets would be ready to intercept and take those forces out. So the simple
announcement of power is likely to have removed that power from some poeple.
I am curious though. Mystra had the ability to stop this long ago. The Goddess of Magic can revoke
anyone (even a God's) ability to access the weave. Was there ever given a reason why this was not
done?
There is more here but I want to read some other comments before I post further.
Posts: 157 | From: Chicago burbs | Registered: Nov 2001 | IP: Logged
DocMoriartty
Member
Member # 8593
posted December 03, 2001 12:20 PM
I have found little talk about part of this statement.
A few background facts are needed.
1. Only 1 Chosen lives in Shadowdale.
2. The Harpers are based out of Berdusk and other cities.
3. Neither Elminster, the Harpers, or the Chosen rule Shadowdale.
Now think. No one is really condemning the Gnomes for killing several thousand people in
Shadowdale for the actions of ONE local and his outside friends. This is one of the main disconnects.
At this point logic says that Mystra would have severed the gnomes connection to the weave and
everything would have ended long before anything could get started.
quote:
Originally posted by Zelda Themelin:
I will share no great wisdom, for I have none, but here are my thoughts.
Change started everything, and fear of that change started those wars.
"Well now, it is obvious what happens next.
Elminster, the Chosen, and the Harpers try to stop the gnomes covertly.
The gnomes take their losses, then blow up Shadowdale.
World War is then declared..."
Just for fun.
Posts: 157 | From: Chicago burbs | Registered: Nov 2001 | IP: Logged
Zelda Themelin
Member
Member # 7666
posted December 03, 2001 01:55 PM
quote:
Originally posted by DocMoriartty:
At this point logic says that Mystra would have severed the gnomes connection to the
weave and everything would have ended long before anything could get started.
Thou should not corrupt my statements by combining parts that are not meant to be together.
That said, maybe something we don't know about, was holding Mystra back.
By hitting Shadowdale, gnomes attacked important symbol. Shadowdale is where Elminster has his
tower, where he acts as sage and shares his knowledge to people who seek his consult. He is very
famious for giving this advice.
By taking part in such heinious act, as acting against gnomes, this man of wisdow soiled his hands
in eyes of gnomes, and attacked seat where he was known to share his wisdom. For harpers, there
was harder to find target, I think.
Posts: 275 | From: Finland | Registered: Sep 2001 | IP: Logged
DocMoriartty
Member
Member # 8593
posted December 03, 2001 02:17 PM
That arguement is a load of crap pure and simple. When the gnomes destroyed Shadowdale it was
cowardly murder. Nothing more nothing less. Your arguements are no better than the ones given to
justify the WTC attack. When the gnomes made this move they acted in the best fashion that a
Chaotic Evil character possibly could.
The gnomes started this entire affair when they MURDERED over 1000 (or more Shadowdale has
grown in the latest FR Book) people for no other crime than to have a neighbor the gnomes didn't
like.
quote:
Originally posted by Zelda Themelin:
By hitting Shadowdale, gnomes attacked important symbol. Shadowdale is where
Elminster has his tower, where he acts as sage and shares his knowledge to people
who seek his consult. He is very famious for giving this advice.
By taking part in such heinious act, as acting against gnomes, this man of wisdow
soiled his hands in eyes of gnomes, and attacked seat where he was known to share
his wisdom. For harpers, there was harder to find target, I think.
Posts: 157 | From: Chicago burbs | Registered: Nov 2001 | IP: Logged
Reprisal
Member
Member # 2368
posted December 03, 2001 02:18 PM
Honestly, I don't see there being an easy or expedient answer to that problem, Edena. As long as
the multiplicity of powers dominates the world of Toril, there's little anyone can do to stop it (short of
nuclear war, or divine intervention)... This is not to say it's a bad thing, however. Scholars have been
debating several things about the Doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction, and most notably,
people see it as one of the few things that helped the world evade a Third World War. If nuclear
weapons had not been invented, or stockpiled, there would have been a build-up of conventional
forces which are admittedly more volatile than nuclear forces for this reason:
The nuclear forces were controlled by two forces, there was a Bipolar split of nuclear controls.
Therefore, an understanding could be met between the two and a balance could be had. It was not
until the economic collapse of one that the nuclear threat was starting to be put down.
If we can get a tidy system of checks and balances, of alliances on a bi- or tri- polar axis, a balance
of power should result. As long as (the Chosen?) maintain that balance of power and make sure no
hegemonic power arises, the delicate absence of war should result until a natural hegemony outlasts
all of them.
Of course, this will be extremely difficult, especially with that Elven Vengeance Fleet and what-not...
That is, of course, none of my business, I have to worry about keeping the Technocratic Coalition a
great power so as to maintain that balance...
--------------------
"Intelligence in chains loses in lucidity what it gains in intensity." - Albert Camus
Posts: 239 | From: Parksville, BC, Canada | Registered: Feb 2001 | IP: Logged
DocMoriartty
Member
Member # 8593
posted December 03, 2001 02:18 PM
There are several things here that one needs to remember.
1. MAD was never an official policy of the United States of America. It was a term created to describe
a situation.
Mad was nevera policy because all through the Eisenhower Administration ABM system (Nike-Zues)
were created set up and functioned that would have decapitated any Soviet nuclear assault with
minimal if any damage to the Continental USA.
Those systems were dismembered by Kennedy and Robert McNamara to fund Kennedy's rebuilding
of the US Conventional Army so that he could send it off to play in places like Vietnam.
Even after Nike Zeus was removed and the US had no AMB there was never a policy of MAD on either
side. The USA never had a desire to fire first and the Soviets were never able to create a situation
where they could win fast enough conventionally to keep a nuclear war from happening.
During the mid to late 70's the US and Nato's conventional military position did deteriorate close to
the point that the Soviets might have felt they could win a conventional war in Europe fast enough to
avoid all out nuclear war. This though ended with the election of Ronald Reagan and the massive
infusion of funds that went into the US military.
Completely off topic of course but all this talk about MAD brought it to mind.
[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: DocMoriartty ]
Posts: 157 | From: Chicago burbs | Registered: Nov 2001 | IP: Logged
Zelda Themelin
Member
Member # 7666
posted December 03, 2001 02:24 PM
Double post
[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: Zelda Themelin ]
Posts: 275 | From: Finland | Registered: Sep 2001 | IP: Logged
Umbran
Member
Member # 4405
posted December 03, 2001 02:39 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Edena_of_Neith:
This is a post related to the IR thread currently running on the ENBoard.
But this is not an IR post itself.
It is a request, for those of you who might be interested in such things, for your
thoughts on a problem that has arisen in the IR thread.
Hmm. Interesting...
I cannot comment before reviewing the IR material, though. That'll take a little while...
Posts: 807 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: May 2001 | IP: Logged
LeMark
Member
Member # 6338
posted December 03, 2001 03:16 PM
quote:
Originally posted by DocMoriartty:
Mad was nevera policy because all through the Eisenhower Administration ABM
system (Nike-Zues) were created set up and functioned that would have decapitated
any Soviet nuclear assault with minimal if any damage to the Continental USA.
Actually, there is a great deal of doubt Nike-Zeus would have worked at all. The RADAR sites were
vulnerable, the nuclear explosions the interceptors used to knock out the incoming warheads created
"dead areas" the RADARs could not see through, and the computers were grossly insufficient.
--------------------
Orion Will Rise.
Posts: 14 | From: Franklin, MA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001 | IP: Logged
Summoner
Member
Member # 6674
posted December 03, 2001 03:26 PM
First off, I like the threads, wish I would have read them earlier.
First thing... Ao, most likely he would interfere at this point.
Second thing... Any of the gods could put an end to this in a heart beat.
Third thing... Balefire, hate to say it, but it is the only way back things up.
Fourth... A wish??? Could that push things back.
Fifth... Is Elminster dead, I'm sure the Sage of Shadowdale has a clone or simulacrum around
somewhere.
Sixth... Nature itself may have something to do, wouldn't Mother Earth (Earth Mother, do something
about this?)
Seventh... None of the Doomsday weapons work, its that simple. The items cannot be created by
mortals.
Eighth... Let it happen, the world begins its cycle anew.
Posts: 190 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2001 | IP: Logged
Zelda Themelin
Member
Member # 7666
posted December 03, 2001 03:28 PM
Mmh, Internet is acting weird for me, wonder if I am only one seeing double posts for me and Doc.
quote:
Originally posted by DocMoriartty:
That arguement is a load of crap pure and simple. When the gnomes destroyed
Shadowdale it was cowardly murder. Nothing more nothing less. Your arguements
are no better than the ones given to justify the WTC attack. When the gnomes made
this move they acted in the best fashion that a Chaotic Evil character possibly could.
The gnomes started this entire affair when they MURDERED over 1000 (or more
Shadowdale has grown in the latest FR Book) people for no other crime than to have
a neighbor the gnomes didn't like.
I think you should not mix real world terrorism comparisons into this discussion, for this is just
semi-humorious take into imaginative Toril-events.
For one, my statements have nothing to do with my sense of justice. I was just considering gnome
reactions, and possible reasons for this absure behavior. I don't know what you consider 'my
argument'.
Nowhere is mentioned number of gnome-deaths during so called covert operation by 'Harpers and
Elminster', so it is really hard to say whatever they were murderously over-reacting, or acting in
desperation against seeming leader (powerful advisor) of this operation, namely Elminster.
Edena_of_Neith might know better, what is thought to be behind gnome reaction. (It might be
mentioned futher in some post, I haven't read the thread that well).
Btw Doc or other FR-people. I am not so familiar with reactions of gods commonly there. Would it
have been logical for Mystra or any other god to involve into these events at this point? Are they
usually getting involved into these sorts of events? That would sound bit weird, since Mystra is
Goddess of Magic (not justice, mercy etc.) and a lot of wars have happened in Toril without
deity-involtment.
Anyway, they really should be thinking how to save the world now, instead of arguing who is to
blame. Demons must be really laughing now.
Posts: 275 | From: Finland | Registered: Sep 2001 | IP: Logged
DocMoriartty
Member
Member # 8593
posted December 03, 2001 03:49 PM
The origional Nike Zeus system did not shoot down ICBMs. The only thing the Soviets had to attack
the USA in numbers with were bombers. Those would have been meat to the wolves. Upgraded
systems like the Nike Xena and Spartan systems could handle nuclear missles inbound and used
special warheads taht while nuclear were nothing like standard nuclear weapons. The system could
and did function and often during testing the Nike Zeus rockets were able to make actual missle on
missle contact against test missles.
BTW, most of that doubt was put forward by people working for Kennedy and MacNamara who wanted
to rape the system for men and material to upgrade the US conventional forces. These are the
same nuckle walkers who talk of decoys and other loads of crap without any knowledge of how the
system worked or why their statements were completely erroneous.
The truly sad part was Kennedy when running for President knew all this and like a disgusting dirty
politician made public statements that he KNEW that Nixon could not refute without compromising
important defense secrets. The election of Kennedy and his assignment of MacNamara was one of
the single lowest points in the 2nd half of the 20th century. Jimmy Carter being President comes a
close 2nd.
quote:
Originally posted by LeMark:
Actually, there is a great deal of doubt Nike-Zeus would have worked at all. The
RADAR sites were vulnerable, the nuclear explosions the interceptors used to knock
out the incoming warheads created "dead areas" the RADARs could not see through,
and the computers were grossly insufficient.
[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: DocMoriartty ]
Posts: 157 | From: Chicago burbs | Registered: Nov 2001 | IP: Logged
DocMoriartty
Member
Member # 8593
posted December 03, 2001 03:59 PM
Couple things.
1. Real world comparisons are the only comparisons I can make. There is nothing else really to use
to make statements with.
2. Gnome deaths do not matter. If I kill your brother and sister does that give you the right to kill
my neighbor who was completely innocent of the whole situation.
3. FR Gods seem to require little reasoning to get involved in the affairs of mortals. This thread
must be in a very altered FR for them to have not gotten involved from the start.
4. The world is no more saveable then Israel is to find peace with the Palestinians. At least part of
the war (humanoids vs Elves, and other parts as well) stem from hatred bred over hundreds of
generations. There is no good guy and there is no bad guy really.
I would say in the end there is no situation here that will really work because there are too many
cross purposes here and too much underlying hatred. Unless you can find several other planets that
are viable places to live with no one to claim them. Then several of the sides could migrate. Even
that would not be the end of things since in the end all sides would just build up on their new homes
and war would start again some time in the future.
quote:
Originally posted by Zelda Themelin:
I think you should not mix real world terrorism comparisons into this discussion, for
this is just semi-humorious take into imaginative Toril-events.
For one, my statements have nothing to do with my sense of justice. I was just
considering gnome reactions, and possible reasons for this absure behavior. I don't
know what you consider 'my argument'.
Nowhere is mentioned number of gnome-deaths during so called covert operation by
'Harpers and Elminster', so it is really hard to say whatever they were murderously
over-reacting, or acting in desperation against seeming leader (powerful advisor) of
this operation, namely Elminster.
Edena_of_Neith might know better, what is thought to be behind gnome reaction. (It
might be mentioned futher in some post, I haven't read the thread that well).
Btw Doc or other FR-people. I am not so familiar with reactions of gods commonly
there. Would it have been logical for Mystra or any other god to involve into these
events at this point? Are they usually getting involved into these sorts of events?
That would sound bit weird, since Mystra is Goddess of Magic (not justice, mercy etc.)
and a lot of wars have happened in Toril without deity-involtment.
Anyway, they really should be thinking how to save the world now, instead of arguing
who is to blame. Demons must be really laughing now.
Posts: 157 | From: Chicago burbs | Registered: Nov 2001 | IP: Logged
Edena_of_Neith
Member
Member # 1235
posted December 03, 2001 06:36 PM
I have read this thread, and I see a lot of very intelligent discourse, and creative ideas, above.
It is a shame that these replies are placed here, on this thread, and not on the main IR thread (the
one with 152 posts.)
If you were to pretend that you were one of the emissaries, and post your replies IC on the main IR
thread, your input could be debated openly within that forum by all the participants.
Your input, intelligent and thought out, would greatly improve the quality and depth of the discourse,
and it would make people think.
In our real world, we have had to face many philosophical and moral debates, and matters of
expedience, with the Cold War being amongst the greatest of the challenges we have ever had to
face.
After all, the fate of the entire planet depended upon the decisions made by the leaders of my
country and the Soviet Union.
Now, in this pretend, imaginary 'what if' scenario on the main IR thread, they face a situation that is
truly thorny, truly difficult, and the answers are elusive - but the penalty for failure to find the
answers is the destruction of the world of Toril.
I would welcome anyone who wished to join the discourse to come and post their thoughts on the
main IR thread.
I wish dearly that the posts above were on the main IR thread, where all the participants could and
would respond to them.
I am only asking those who are interested, obviously, in such a posting to the IR thread.
I am only asking ... this is a mere request.
- - -
I can respond to your posts above, but only to express my own philosophy and opinions, and my
take on your philosophies and opinions.
I do not pretend to have the answers, either in the make believe 'what if' IR thread, or in the real
world, to the problems people face.
One thing I cannot do: I CANNOT respond with an IR response (that is, a response in which I play a
'make believe' being for the 'what if' IR scenario) to your posts above.
This is not the IR thread. This is another thread, and it would not be appropriate for me to attempt
to carry on any IR discussion here.
What I CAN do is answer your serious posts above with serious posts of my own.
- - -
I genuinely hope that some of you will consider responding on the IR thread itself, whether IC or
OOC.
There is a debate going on there that is - at least in my opinion, anyways - worth the time and
trouble.
In a lot of monty-haul games, especially when I was young, characters ultimately obtained
Doomsday Weapons (such as starships or blow-up-the-world spells.)
And, invariably, these campaigns crashed and burned, as the players either wrecked the campaign
world or they became bored and quit.
Dungeons and Dragons IS a game where the player characters - at least many of them - seek ever
greater and greater power.
Wizards seek greater and greater spells.
Fighters become better and better at fighting.
Thieves become better and better at stealing.
Clerics become greater in their faith, and capable of greater miracles.
Monks become more truly attuned their their inner selves, and gain all manner of abilities.
Unfortunately, the extrapolation does not stop with 9th level spells or the arquebus, although the
mechanics of D&D do stop there - beyond that, and the mechanics break down (in my opinion.)
But IC ambition, at least, does not recognize such limits, if it recognizes any limits at all.
And thus, the monty-haul games that I have described from my youth.
In the IR scenario, the monty-haul situation has come to pass, and the extrapolation of ambition
and ever greater spells and technological weapons has reached an inevitable conclusion.
However, they have not yet employed these spells and weapons, and the fantasy world of Toril (our
IR version of it, that is) yet exists, is yet green and fertile, and hope yet remains.
Unfortunately, many of the great powers consist of very evil creatures: illithid, phaerimm, aboleth,
and others, and all the powers have the ability to gate in even more beings, some of them very evil,
to assist them, should war break out again.
This is a scenario that could, conceivably, happen in an adult game of D&D - I suppose as an
experimental game only, in which the DM and players all agreed at the beginning that it was an
experiment.
Now that the IR thread has, in effect, produced the equivalent of this scenario, even though it is not
a game per se, what is the answer?
What is the answer, when the situation becomes like this?
Again, would anyone be interested in going over to the IR thread, and relating there what you think?
And again, I am just asking. This is a simple request, and only for those who would be interested in
doing such a thing.
[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: Edena_of_Neith ]
Posts: 1620 | From: Michigan, United States | Registered: Jan 2001 | IP: Logged
Zelda Themelin
Member
Member # 7666
posted December 03, 2001 07:00 PM
I am starting to wonder, why gnomes, who are not maligant race, would have started such attrocity
against Shadowdale.
Did something horrible take, maybe horrible and tragic accident take place during Harper-opertation,
which made these normally sensible beings act in insane thrist for revenge?
Or was there some darker power whispering in gnome's minds, manipulating them into acts that
would surely spell destruction?
Is some unknowable evil manipulating Chosens even now to see these acts of accusations as way to
make things better, when they clearly seems to work to opposite direction?
Maybe Iuz is not only evil power from Oerth in game. What if it is waking mind of Tharizdun
wreaking havoc in their minds or even worse.
In that case, demons would be laughing indeed.
Posts: 275 | From: Finland | Registered: Sep 2001 | IP: Logged
Edena_of_Neith
Member
Member # 1235
posted December 03, 2001 07:20 PM
I repeat, this is not the IR thread.
Such speculation would be great on the IR thread, but here few will even read it, and it will never
become a part of the discussion.
Posts: 1620 | From: Michigan, United States | Registered: Jan 2001 | IP: Logged
Zelda Themelin
Member
Member # 7666
posted December 03, 2001 07:41 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Edena_of_Neith:
I repeat, this is not the IR thread.
Such speculation would be great on the IR thread, but here few will even read it, and
it will never become a part of the discussion.
Copy-paste, if you want to.
I haven't ever played IC-games in forums, so I am kind of shy to start in them with my clumsyyyy
English. I don't know other's excuses.
No idea what role I would be good for either. Really enjoy reading them, though. You have way with
words Edena, as well as some of those other people (wow!)
Posts: 275 | From: Finland | Registered: Sep 2001 | IP: Logged
William Ronald
Member
Member # 542
posted December 03, 2001 07:48 PM
A major part of the problem I see in the IR thread is multiple nations with the ability to destroy the
world. MAD worked, in part, because their was a balance between East and West in the ability to
destroy each other's soceities. With several major hostile powers the pot is much closet to the
boiling point.
Several of the sides seem to be entrenched in either their political agendas, racial hatreds, or both.
Unlike our own world, no compromise can be reached with an enemy such as the illithid. The leaders
of the USSR, to the best of my knowledge, never believed they could launch an attack without
suffering damage in kind.
The most logical solution would be for each side to agree to some level of mutual cooperation and
partial disarmament. Possibly some deliberative body could be created to allow the nations to
discuss their differences peaceably. There could even be some sort of agreement that if two factions
go to war, the others will move in to break up the war. (However, there is the risk that someone will
try to break them up and take over the disputed territories.)
Considering the level of mutual recriminations, hatred, and stubborness on the IR thread, I think
there is only a small chance that Toril will survive. However, there is a chance if each side will look at
itself, admit its flaws, and works towards mutual survival.
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Topic: (semi-IR) A question to the thinkers and philosphers out there
Geoff Watson
Member
Member # 170
posted December 03, 2001 08:02 PM
Elminster will just cast his Deus-Ex-Machina/Ignore-Rules/Save-the-Day spell and the good guys win.
Isn't that how it normally works in the FR novels and adventures? If the PCs screw up, Elmy or the
other 'Chosen of Greenwood' save the day.
Geoff.
Posts: 558 | From: Sydney, NSW, Australia | Registered: Dec 2000 | IP: Logged
Edena_of_Neith
Member
Member # 1235
posted December 03, 2001 08:23 PM
Zelda, thank you for the compliment. My appreciations.
I cannot cut-and-paste the comments of the posts on this thread to the IR thread, without permission
from the posters (and probably the moderators too.)
The IR Thread is a hypothetical question, originally intended as humor, but it would appear it has
become rather serious.
Posts: 1620 | From: Michigan, United States | Registered: Jan 2001 | IP: Logged
Zelda Themelin
Member
Member # 7666
posted December 03, 2001 09:58 PM
Mmh, book series by Piers Anthony called 'Incarnations of Immortality' was set in world where science
and magic peacefully co-existed. Matter with good/evil was quite different, however. Interesting
setting, and very colorful, though plot was bit on a silly side too.
In that series were no gods as such, but rather 'officers', who where selected from among mortals (with
different entry methods) to represent natural forces of cosmos. Power was with 'office'. Death, Time,
Fate, War, Nature, Good, Evil (there vere lesser 'offices' too).
Wonder if this kind of fate is in store for gods, should creatures of magic agree to co-exist with
science?
(oh, btw, do I leave this thread alone, and go away?)
Posts: 275 | From: Finland | Registered: Sep 2001 | IP: Logged
Edena_of_Neith
Member
Member # 1235
posted December 04, 2001 02:29 AM
The more posts, the better, Zelda! (at least, that's true in your case )
To answer a post above, I think some people in the IR thread would be very happy if Elminster could
charge in like the cavalry, and save the day.
However, no cavalry is coming.
They must answer the 'what if' for themselves.
They must find the answers, and present them, themselves.
In my campaign of the Forgotten Realms the Chosen do not:
Ride to the rescue.
Preserve the Balance.
Rule the lands.
Put down evil mages plotting world dominion.
In my campaign setting, the Chosen appreciate that coddling the races will only inhibit their growth,
the flowering of their potential and possibilities, and ultimately all the great achievements they may
realize.
Instead, the Chosen of my campaign deliberately nurture curiousity, experimentation, thought, and
rebellion (for thought is often rebellion.)
[ December 04, 2001: Message edited by: Edena_of_Neith ]
Posts: 1620 | From: Michigan, United States | Registered: Jan 2001 | IP: Logged
Zelda Themelin
Member
Member # 7666
posted December 04, 2001 08:00 AM
In wonder...
Well, well, seemed for moment this Commonwealth idea was succeeding, but I wasn't holding my
breath. Wonder when they start bickering about what 'language' should be used in 'offical'
communications within Commonweath. Some might come up with 'telepathy', and now, that would be
problematic/rasistic to some less 'evolved' minds.
I still think there migth be some evil force manipulating events. Most of it can be placed on
responsibility of these factions, but there are few details, that make me suspect. This might not be
true to start with, but since we are speaking about magical world, like Toril, these kind of conficts are
just what is demanded to stir darker forces.
Thinking all what has actually taken place, and massive amount of creatures 'sacrificed to alter of
hate'. Evil forces are known to feed on just such actions. Possible B5 'Shadow' scenario comes to mind,
for exampele; some help is offered to 'fitting' faction ("one who is ready to rumble").
On a positive side, there has been evolution, and many positive aspects too on the way, so I wouldn't
say they are doomed. But they are pressed, though.
My guess would be, that there is going to be one war more, perhaps against remnants of elves,
perhaps against some other faction too (don't think humanoids though). This is really sad, but I
suspect these factions just can't find way to play it all together in a such short time.
Perhaps some neutral (druidical perhaps) side, could make elven fleet/other hatemongers see
another side to this conflict, and thus neutrality as option, thought that is doubtful.
I think Commonweath is their best shot for productive way to 'save the world', but I see some
bloodshed in horizon for that to actually take place. Wish I were wrong, though. There might be some
other possiblites, but they haven't been presented yet.
Zelda,
still wishing for 'happy' ending...
(Slaads, "oh no")
Should have guessed. Your thread was given friedly teleport to in-character forum.
It's because the Slaads and Chaos I tell you.
[ December 04, 2001: Message edited by: Zelda Themelin ]
Posts: 275 | From: Finland | Registered: Sep 2001 | IP: Logged
Piratecat
Administrator
Member # 158
posted December 04, 2001 08:54 AM
I've slid the IR thread over to the In Character forum, as it is just about 100% role playing! You can
find it here:
http://66.34.55.203//ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=29&t=000263&p=9
Edena, if you want this thread moved to, email me; otherwise, it's fine right here.
--------------------
- Piratecat, EN-Board President
"A cat that good, you don't eat all at once."
Posts: 4261 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Dec 2000 | IP: Logged
Zelda Themelin
Member
Member # 7666
posted December 04, 2001 10:02 AM
On a side note: I don't think this dispute can be solved with logic, if more and more 'mystery
characters' keep showing up. Chaos of cosmos becomes more serious and consuming factor in play
than factions themselves.
It corredos patterns and factors presented this far, and makes looking forward in future black hole
where endless possiblities clash in impossible and improbable ways.
Not that I mind, it's kind of interesting to watch. *grin*
When trying to find answers, but fail: Blame it on players, who don't want the game to end, and thus
complicate things to make it last longer.
[ December 04, 2001: Message edited by: Zelda Themelin ]
Posts: 275 | From: Finland | Registered: Sep 2001 | IP: Logged
Zelda Themelin
Member
Member # 7666
posted December 04, 2001 11:48 AM
I have a feeling this side-thread is about to become past, and since I have taken such delight in
reading your contributions folk, I devised silly litte poem to this unremarkable little tread.
****************************************
Threads grow, and widen and become fast,
Then they die, crumble and turn to dust.
New is old and then new again,
renewned, lost and maybe found again.
*****************************************
Sorry, just bored
Posts: 275 | From: Finland | Registered: Sep 2001 | IP: Logged
Edena_of_Neith
Member
Member # 1235
posted December 04, 2001 08:48 PM
I am posting here to bump this thread.
To remind Phasmus and any others who might have missed it, that the main IR thread has been
moved over to the In Character forum.
And I am wondering where Forrester is, for his statement is long overdue and is crucial to what is
happening.
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