Is Chaotic evil more evil than Lawful evil?

[Elder-Basilisk]

The idea that politics can be mapped on a right/left spectrum is pretty much bunk. It may (though I don't think it does) work for Eurpean politics where there is a tradition of statist conservative parties but in the US, at least, the conservative tradition has more in common with libertarianism in many respects. Similarly, both fascist and socialist governments operated on many of the same philosophies and by many of the same methods. Both require totalitarian collectivism and state ownership. Both were hostile to religion in their most prominent forms. Nazi is short for National Socialist. While the thesis that fascism, socialism, and communism are simply different branches of the same family may be informative, there is no right-left or conservative-liberal spectrum that will capture the relevant and important differences.

As for the idea that the KKK and Neo-Nazis are ultra-conservatives, that's nothing more than (frequently repeated) slander. There isn't some convenient dial of conservatism which can be turned from nine to eleven to produce a Neo-Nazi from a libertarian or a KKK member from your typical republican. The reality of political life is far more complex than that. Robert Byrd is probably the most prominent former KKK member. Many observers believe that Republican Bobbie Jindal lost the Louisiana governor's race, in part, because of the dark color of his skin. There is no doubt that some KKK members and neo-nazis also consider themselves conservatives but that just goes to show that there is more to politics than race.

The notion that conservatives are all racists merely one step away from being Nazis or clan members appeals to a certain self-righteous and arrogant set of intelligentsia but has no basis beyond their relentless need to feel superior.

 

[Drifter Bob]

Actually, Stalinists were not really on the left side of the spectrum. They said they were leftists. The philosophy they claimed to follow, the doctrine they espoused, were left. Communism theory is left - but in theory, communism has no government at all. Communism practice, as seen so far, has been right - totalitarian government with all power in the hands of a few individuals. Stalinists weren't terribly different from fascists.

Well, this is a whole nother argument, pretty off topic.... but socialism and 'pure' communism if you will are one thing, but communism in the 20th century has meant marxism, and marxists believe in the "transitional" state with absolute power, the 'dictatorship of the proletariat" which is then allegedly supposed to fade away after being used to destroy the enemies of the people. In practice it invariably becomes a permanent bureaucratic state.

I agree with you that socialism doesn't necessarly mean big government, but I believe what you are talking about really is libertarian socialism or anarchism.

The point is though marxism does exist on the left end of the political spectrum, it's traditional allies have always been leftists (even if marxists usually turned out to be very bad allies themselves!). The same can be said for groups on the extreme right.

DB

 

[S'mon]

I've read a lot of first hand accounts of WW II, and the first part of your statement is the key. People today just don't have a realistic grasp of what war on that scale meant. According to WARTIME, by Paul Fussell, the average US infantry division in Europe replaced 150% of it's combat troops, and over 250% of it's junior officers from June of 1944 through January of 1945. That does not include divisions which were 'combat reduced' i.e. destroyed as a unit, as quite a few were, for example a dozen or so at the battle of the bulge. In other words, a typical unit of 10,000 or so troops, would have gone through 15,000 replacements in that time period. Think about it.

I've read the horrifying memoirs of my grandfather-in-law, a peaceful man who found himself serving as a replacement in a US combat infantry unit in Europe 1944-45 and saw a lot of fighting, most notably in the early part of the Battle of the Bulge when the last German offensive was overrunning their lines (37mm antitank guns vs King Tigers, *ouch*) - he was very lucky to survive and it really brought home to me the price that generation paid for the freedom of the world.

 

[S'mon]

If you are trying to tell me "kick their ass and take their gas" is both a legitimate political philosophy and a benign, non-evil statement, then you are going to find me quite unsympathetic to your argument.

I think in D&D terms "kill them and take their stuff" (which is the same statement) is Evil-aligned if it means an unprovoked attack on somebody, but possibly slipping into Neutral if it means responding to someone else's provocation with an extreme reaction. I suspect the bumper-stickerers are mostly thinking in the latter terms... either that or you can take our North Sea Oil reserves from our cold dead hands, old bean!

-Simon, patriotic Brit.

 

[Drifter Bob]

in the US, at least, the conservative tradition has more in common with libertarianism in many respects.

Yeah, real libertarian. Putting in the patriot act, demanding prayer in schools, outlawing abortion... thats real libertarian. Guffaw


DB

 

[Drifter Bob]

I've read the horrifying memoirs of my grandfather-in-law, a peaceful man who found himself serving as a replacement in a US combat infantry unit in Europe 1944-45 and saw a lot of fighting, most notably in the early part of the Battle of the Bulge when the last German offensive was overrunning their lines (37mm antitank guns vs King Tigers, *ouch*) - he was very lucky to survive and it really brought home to me the price that generation paid for the freedom of the world.

Wow! A replacement during the Ardennes... He was lucky. Hats off to your grandfather. I bet has has some amazing stories to tell.

DB

 

[S'mon]

I agree that describing Nazis and the KKK as "ultra conservative" doesn't seem accurate, as well as getting into actual political debate (I don't think saying mass murder is evil is 'political' even on EN World). Nazis and the KKK are both radical groups, not 'conservative' (Ok I know Conservative, like Liberal, has a different implication in the US) and although some ultra-conservatives are racist, racism is not a necessary tenet of US-conservative belief, which it certainly is for Nazism and for the KKK. Fascism (Mussolini-style) can be non-racist too, but likewise in many respects bears little resemblance to US extreme-conservatism. I agree there's no dial you can turn that will necessarily take people from conservative to fascist to Nazi; you can't turn a dial from conservative-royalist-absolute-monarchist either; in fact it's historically been a lot easier for most people to transition from Nazi or Fascist to Trotskyite or Stalinist (or vice versa) since these radical totalitarian systems have far more in common.

 

[Drifter Bob]

I think in D&D terms "kill them and take their stuff" (which is the same statement) is Evil-aligned if it means an unprovoked attack on somebody, but possibly slipping into Neutral if it means responding to someone else's provocation with an extreme reaction.

-Simon, patriotic Brit.

Right. And there is no qualifier here. The sentiment is not "kill them and take their stuff because...". It also well predates sept 11, I knew guys who had "kick their ass and take their gas" on a t-shirt when I was in the Army back in the 1980's.

To me, "kll them and take their stuff" is an evil sentiment. Of course, it is the modus opperandi of may D&D characters! Perhaps best not to think about that too much....


DB

 

[S'mon]

Wow! A replacement during the Ardennes... He was lucky. Hats off to your grandfather. I bet has has some amazing stories to tell.

DB

He died last year, sadly. I can email you his memoirs if you like, my wife transcribed them before he died - email me at simontmn@ntlworld.com
It's not always clear from them what's going on, but after he died I read the official record of his Division that he had in his house and linking what he described seeing to what's in there it's clear he was at the heart of at a critical point in the last act of WW2. He was one of those cooks they fed into the meatgrinder to replace losses.

 

[Drifter Bob]

TNazi is short for National Socialist.

Is nationalism a conservative trait or isn't it?


DB