Is Chaotic evil more evil than Lawful evil?

[JacktheRabbit]

I see neither lawful evil, nor chaotic evil being any more "evil" than the other.

Look at it this way. Neither would do something that the other would not do. They would merely do it for different reasons and or justifications.

To suggest that the "reasons" behind doing a horrible act can make that act more or less evil is to wander into the realm or realpolitiks, hate crime legislation and other modern day crap which the conversation does not need.

Or to put it more simply if someone intentionally killed and ate a baby would the reason why really matter in determining how evil the person was or would you just warm up the electric chair and invite them to sit down.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

You are half right. Lawful evil is a fairly common alignment in RL. Your basic redneck "kick their ass and take their gas" ultra conservative US citizen, your hardline Communist party member in China or North Korea.... Nazis, Fascists both old and new (ala Serbia, for example), Right wing death squads in Latin America.

But chaotic evil is equally prevalant. If Lawful evil is typified by the cruel and callous meanie Cop, sticking to the letter of the law and using it to hurt and harm, chaotic evil is the reckless "gangsta" gang banger type, the outlaw biker who rapes and breaks heads without a care, the Cholho who, along with his 15 friends, stomps a mudhole in the behind of anyone who looks at him 'funny'.


It's really pretty simple. Folks who think chaotic is more evil or law is more evil are betraying their own prejudices. Did it ever occur to you that you think that way because of your own alignment


DB

Your arguement merely proves how alignments cannot be brought into real life discussion. Your chaotic evil gang banger may be intensely loyal to his gang and willing to risk his life for his fellow gang members. He may also love his mother and do anything to make her happy. Is that Chaotic Evil?

No of course not. Real human behavior cannot be defined by simplistic DnD alignment.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Both are equally evil.

Chaotic Evil is more surprising, less predictable, and often more personal. Leopold and Loeb, Albert Fish, Jack the Ripper.

Lawful Evil can have the greater sway, and worse become acceptable to those in its environs. Impersonal. Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Charlie Manson.

And yes, random destruction of someone else's property for no other reason than because you felt like it is evil. Or to put it another way, Chaotic Evil can sometimes qualify for 'Stupid Evil'. For that matter so can Lawful Evil in the 'I was only following orders' sense.

The Auld Grump

 

[Drifter Bob]

Your arguement merely proves how alignments cannot be brought into real life discussion. Your chaotic evil gang banger may be intensely loyal to his gang and willing to risk his life for his fellow gang members. He may also love his mother and do anything to make her happy. Is that Chaotic Evil?

No of course not. Real human behavior cannot be defined by simplistic DnD alignment.

The alignment system isn't perfect (it could use another level of nuance to make it clearer), but if you think it through clearly, it works.

The gangbanger you describe is evil ! Just because he is evil doesn't mean he can't have any redeeming qualities. There are thousands of people just like that who love their mothers and everything but will rob, rape, and kill strangers without compunction. They are chaotic evil.


Let me ask you a hypothetical question of my own. Is the Lawful Evil WW II Waffen SS trooper who is eaually loyal to his fellow troops, loves his mother and would do anything to make her happy, but also eagerly turns over Jews hiding in his neighborhood when on leave, and shoots Russian P.O.W.'s and civilians every chance he gets, engages in torture of Prisoners, and eagerly participates in burning homes of Russian Civilians in the hopes of creating Libernsraum ('living space') for Germans.... is he evil?

Of course he is. Evil doesn't have to be cartoon evil any more than good has to be cartoon good. There is nuance in there but there are also clear ethical boundaries which separate the alignments.

DB

 

[Drifter Bob]

Both are equally evil.

Chaotic Evil is more surprising, less predictable, and often more personal. Leopold and Loeb, Albert Fish, Jack the Ripper.

Lawful Evil can have the greater sway, and worse become acceptable to those in its environs. Impersonal. Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Charlie Manson.

And yes, random destruction of someone else's property for no other reason than because you felt like it is evil. Or to put it another way, Chaotic Evil can sometimes qualify for 'Stupid Evil'. For that matter so can Lawful Evil in the 'I was only following orders' sense.

The Auld Grump

Just because you are lawful-evil doesn't mean you are a manipulator type, lawful evil has it's ranks of storm-troopers and passive supporters as well. Your basic Imperial storm trooper from star wars is lawful evil, as is your basic cop or gestapo officer in a fascist society. Nazi skinheads are arguably lawful evil (at least the more organized ones) as was the old Ku Kux Klan. Pinkerton strikebreakers back in the 1920's, were Lawful Evil, as were Communist informers in 1930's Soviet Union, or 1970's Cambodia.

Also, destruction of property doesn't necessarily make somebody evil, even if it is wanton. It is very likely chaotic, but I would say it was only evil if it was likely to seriously harm someone. Like, burning down somebodies home when they have nowhere else to live, or trashing their car when they have no other way to get to wor, that is evil. Smashing up a few lawn ornaments you don't like the look of is merely obnoxious, IMHO.

DB

 

[Drifter Bob]

Well, if you're Lawful in alignment, you'll view Chaotic Evil behavior as more evil than Lawful Evil behavior. You'll probably even find Chaotic Neutral behavior to be evil. Vice versa if you're chaotic, naturally.

Right, exactly. People don't realise that RL is just one big D&D game and they are merely showing their alignment !


DB

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Just because you are lawful-evil doesn't mean you are a manipulator type, lawful evil has it's ranks of storm-troopers and passive supporters as well. Your basic Imperial storm trooper from star wars is lawful evil, as is your basic cop or gestapo officer in a fascist society. Nazi skinheads are arguably lawful evil (at least the more organized ones) as was the old Ku Kux Klan. Pinkerton strikebreakers back in the 1920's, were Lawful Evil, as were Communist informers in 1930's Soviet Union, or 1970's Cambodia.

Also, destruction of property doesn't necessarily make somebody evil, even if it is wanton. It is very likely chaotic, but I would say it was only evil if it was likely to seriously harm someone. Like, burning down somebodies home when they have nowhere else to live, or trashing their car when they have no other way to get to wor, that is evil. Smashing up a few lawn ornaments you don't like the look of is merely obnoxious, IMHO.

DB

For the first part - nowhere did I state otherwise, and used the 'just following orders' example as lawful evil under the stupid evil example, though perhaps 'mindless' or 'thoughtless' would have been a better term.

For the second part, no, I do not agree - causing harm to someone, wether bodily or to property for selfish reasons is evil, though damage to property is arguably less so. Stomping on a kid's sandwich at lunch does him no harm, but it is still a minor evil act.

The Auld Grump

 

[hero4hire]

I'd definitely rather have dinner with a LE person, then a CE person. Heck, sometimes I think some of my friends ARE LE (you guys know who you are!)
LE can even have admirable goals and ideals but thier methods can be harsh.

I often think of Dr. Doom or Magneto when I think LE.

 

[S'mon]

No, sorry, I'm not wrong.

D&D has always had within it a distinction between a property crime and a crime of wanton violence and cruelty.

The idea of the neutral thief has been embraced by D&D for 30 years. Indeed, it is even possible for D&D to embrace the possibility of even a neutral good thief.

Where D&D drew the line was at violence and cruelty to other living sentient beings. The assassin in 1st edition is the classic example. That was an individual who killed for money - the "antithesis of weal" to quote EGG.

This is a sensible distinction. Legal systems throughout the industrialized world draw a vast distinction between property crimes and crimes of violence.

Put bluntly, the group of 12 year olds out egging a house are NOT engaged in a lawful good act. But this is hardly a few steps up the slippery slope from donning black runed armor and posing for a Frazzetta painting.

Similarly, the bank which forecloses on a defaulting borrower is not engaged in a lawful evil act. At worst it is lawful neutral and is even quite defencibly lawful good when taking a long view of the matter. To ascribe to the enforcement of a secured lending instrument a moral equivalency of "evil" is just something we are not EVER going to agree upon, no matter if we write messages to one another for the next 10 years, 3 times a day.

Our viewpoints on these matters are clearly just not the same. What is self-evident to you is not in the least self-evident to me.

Yes... in D&D you can do evil acts without necessarily being Evil-aligned., just as you can do good acts without being Good aligned. Actions in D&D break down into morally-Good (usually defined as altruism, pace Ayn Rand), morally-Neutral, and morally-Evil. Vandalism or theft are not morally-Neutral acts AFAICS. A typical Neutral person commits lots of minor Good & Evil actions without ever changing Alignment.
So a thief who steals from the rich merchant but avoids violence can be Neutral not Evil, and the rich merchant who occasionally gives a few coins to the poor can be Neutral not Good. Committing an Evil act, an act which is not morally Neutral, say embezzling money from their Order, causes Paladins to lose Paladinhood but won't necessarily make them Evil-aligned.

 

[S'mon]

Well, if you're Lawful in alignment, you'll view Chaotic Evil behavior as more evil than Lawful Evil behavior. You'll probably even find Chaotic Neutral behavior to be evil. Vice versa if you're chaotic, naturally.

This thread certainly shows that the Lawful types say CE is worse (possibly even 'insane') and the Chaotic types say LE is worse.