Is Chaotic evil more evil than Lawful evil?

[Li Shenron]

In general a lawful (or conservative) person tend to think that chaos (or freedom) is wrong, therefore leaning to evil, while a chaotic person would think that order - at least when arbitrary - is wrong therefore evil.

That's why IMHO who says that LE is more acceptable than CE is most of the time a conservative person who would probably also say that CN is unacceptable as well, and perhaps CG is ok but for freaks.

I am myself quite C in real life, and in fact I tend to do the mistake the other way around, and think LN is arrogant and negative, and LG is boring and stubborn.

One thing I want to add is that I completely disagree with the ones who say that LE "can be convinced to lay off". To their own extreme, chaos is malleable but unpredictable (so you can actually get a CE drop his plans against you, but you're not guaranteed how long it'll last), while law can be confined but not easily convinced to change its plan.

 

[Falconnan]

Well, let me see if I can gum up the works . . .
Which is more chaotic, chaotic good, or chaotic evil?
Which is more lawful, lawful evil or lawful good?
The answer is a bit disturbing, as is the core question in this thread.
Consider that evil is about the intentional infliction of harm to others, without remorse, and without cause. We don't mean evil, we mean Evil.
Chaos is about not following any set rule. This does not mean that a chaotic evil creature will always commit an evil act, but it does mean that he will almost always follow the path of least resistance, but cause maximum pain. On occassion, he may commit a good act, but that is the exception, not the rule.
Law is about sticking to the game plan. This does not mean they follow the rules. However, a lawful evil creature will apply the law in the most cruel fashion they can as a general rule.

As for the Hitler reference, here's a good example:
LAWFUL EVIL-NATIONAL SCALE: Communist China--The law is enforced to the point of crushing all freedoms that the state finds inconvenient. Note that this government really wants a strong and vibrant China.
LAWFUL EVIL-INDIVIDUAL SCALE: Darth Vader--A natural tyrant who wants to impose his will on the universe, to bring order to chaos. Note that while willing to kill Luke, he does love his son, and wishes to co-rule with him.
NEUTRAL EVIL-NATIONAL SCALE: North Korea--This regime is only interested in its own power and survival. It will sell arms to rogue nations that want to kill innocents to bankroll its own survival, and will starve out its own populace for the same reason.
NEUTRAL EVIL-INDIVIDUAL SCALE: Sirus Grissom from ConAir. He enjoys hurting people, but only when convenient, or to send a message. He likes to be brutal, and in charge. He likes the evil in him, as sees nothing wrong with it. On the other hand, he has no personal attachments, though he has ethics: "rapists just above pondscum on the evolutionary ladder . . ." Not a nice guy, but he has standards nonetheless.
CHAOTIC EVIL-NATIONAL SCALE: Nazi Germany. Picked on a socially weak group of people to cast blame. Killed and tortured for the sake of own personal joy, with no compuction. Indeed, sought to conquer for the sake of making slaves of other nationalities, while killing off the weaker. Survival of the fittest via torture is chaotic evil to a tee. Though organized and efficient, the drives and goals of the regime were chaotic evil.
CHAOTIC EVIL-INDIVIDUAL SCALE: Ted Bundy may work, but I like Osama bin Laden. He may have a message, but the message is to kill more. Kill, kill, kill. Do this and get rewarded. Evil, through and through, even if he does not see it.
Evil is evil. Lawful evil generally has a deeper pool to draw on, but chaotic evil is more prevalent. Also, neutral evil is just as common. The government is lawful (good, evil, or neutral is a matter of opinion). The Soviet government post-Stalin was more or less Lawful Evil. It lasted a long time, was quite strong, and firmly entrenched.
The mafia is more neutral evil (lawful and neutral tendencies not withstanding). They have no desire to inflict pain on others, but generally do not care if they do.
Your crack dealers are more chaotic evil. Its about them, and f*@& anyone who gets in their way.
Which is more evil? Which causes more pain? I would argue their all just about as bad as the other, and just as hard to fight.

 

[Li Shenron]

I don't think it's a good idea to make examples with RL countries, some people may be seriously offended.

 

[S'mon]

Well I'd rather have Reinhard Heydrich as my next door neighbour than Ted Bundy, yup. So CE is 'worse' than LE on a personal level, probably. OTOH LEs are much more likely to conquer the world and institute a Thousand Year Reich...

 

[S'mon]

I am not sure which society one might point to as CE. It is, almost by definition, an impossible task.

Usually anarchy states like Somalia are classified as CE.

 

[S'mon]

I simply do not agree with these views.

Vandalism is NOT CE. It might be to you, but to liken a misdemeanor property crime with CHAOTIC EVIL is applying an analytical framework we simply do not agree with.

Simlarly, embezzling isn't evil. It's selfish. Its wrongful and clearly unlawful. But EVIL?

I think when you present a continuum of "evil" that ranges from spray painting graffitti to theft, ritualistic serial murder and the holocaust, your aperture needs significantly more focus.

Naw, he's right and you're wrong. Acts that do harm to others and aren't balanced by a countervailing good are Evil (in D&D terms); that certainly includes random vandalism (CE), foreclosure on the widow's mortgage (LE) and fraud (NE). That these are not as evil as genocide or serial killing doesn't make them Neutral acts in D&D terms.

 

[Hand of Evil]

Evil is evil is evil, you still are going to hell or be a dung beetle for 1000 years. The thing that I see in many of these replies is really "what do you fear more, lawful evil or chaotic evil?" not which is greater, interesting when you think about it, because the chaotic evil does come across as more fearful in the night stalker way, where lawful is almost has a understanding of the times tune to it. Mmmmmm.

 

[Warden]

I agree with the arguement that CE or LE (or NE, for that matter) aren't really more evil than the other, but there is something else to consider.

Take Chaos completely on its own: how many of us can truly lead chaotic lives? Not just impulsive, flying by the seats of our pants, but living without any order or control in our lives whatsoever. In my opinion, this is impossible as we are mostly lawful beings. So, in that regard, Chaos is a truly scary form for us as lawful creatures to understand. When mixed with Evil...we are afraid.

Going back to Ted Bundy as the chaotic evil example, I don't think that's true. My view of chaotic evil is someone who has complete rage to a point of uncontrolled fury, which Mr. Bundy did not. He had a compulsion to kill women, yes, but he was rational enough to commit these murders in an organized fashion and spend as much effort avoiding arrest as he did committing his murders. His knowledge of American law was used in an attempt to outsmart the police and remain at large. Put it all together and you have lawful evil. I highly doubt that there are any real-world humans that we can truly classify as chaotic evil.

 

[diaglo]

Before someone replies by saying, "No, just more chaotic", let me make it clear what I'm asking. Is a chaotic evil person a "worse" person than a lawful evil person? I mean, a lawful evil person at least has some code of conduct, some sense of loyalty, some concept of allegiance and order.

in D&D. evil is evil.

chaos and law are a different concept.

no evil is more evil than any other. NE = LE = CE in the Evil department.

 

[Li Shenron]

...how many of us can truly lead chaotic lives? ...but living without any order or control in our lives whatsoever. In my opinion, this is impossible as we are mostly lawful beings.

...

My view of chaotic evil is someone who has complete rage to a point of uncontrolled fury...

...

I highly doubt that there are any real-world humans that we can truly classify as chaotic evil.

Well this seems to me that you clearly are centering "normality" to being lawful, but is that the right way to do?

Try to put normality (or average) to True Neutral: the very average man who follows the law except in minor circumstances (if he can get away with it), who would like to live in a society under control of crime but which leaves enough freedom to the citizens, who would definitely not hurt other human beings, but wouldn't either sacrifice his own life, safety or property to help someone who is not a friend or relative.

There was a not uncommon at all trend in early RPG years to think chaotic = crazy, but I really think that if that was true, there would be little sense to play with an alignment axis normal / disturbed / insane

There's some need of order and some need of freedom in every human being, and even if you're biased towards one of the two, there are very different degrees.