D&D 5E Is Dying really hard?

[Hussar]

While I generally won't attack the downed PC if there is another available target, I have no problems finishing off a multi-attack into a downed PC if he's the only thing in reach. And since all those hits are auto-crits when you're down, it's pretty quick to get a pair of death save fails. Makes the next round very, very interesting.

 

[Nevvur]

The latter isn't as common as it might have been in 3.x, but neither it not whack-a-mole is at all implausible..

... a more important question, since both those suck, is what's the third alternative, does it also suck, and if not how do we gravitate towards it ?

The obvious third alternative, btw, is traditional hp attrition - characters rarely getting knocked to 0 in a single combat, and retiring from the dungeon when they get too low...

...i believe folks complain that the combats balanced for that mode are 'too easy...'

One of the most elegant house rules I've encountered for discouraging whack-a-mole (or healers ignoring allies til they're KOd) is to impose a level of exhaustion whenever a PC reaches 0 HP. Never used it in my own games, but I would support a DM who wanted to instate such a rule.

 

[Caliban]

The short version of all this is, while I know "whack-a-mole" situations can happen, my anecdotal experience has been very different, and I'm curious how common that experience is. Sure, I've seen the "guy takes 47 damage, doesn't die, gets brought back up before his next turn, no loss of uptime" happen. But the "guy takes damage, doesn't die, suffers loss of uptime, and is at serious risk of actually dying" scenario has been, again, in my experience, a lot more common.

It really depends on the group. Personally, I try to play so that neither I, or anyone else hits 0HP.

But it does happen, and sometimes the best thing to do is stabilize the the downed character instead of healing them - that way they aren't a high priority target. Then heal them when you are confident they won't immediately get attacked and put down again.

 

[Shiroiken]

I have 3 deaths in my current campaign, which is levels 1&2. One player ran up and got surrounded by kobolds, who had nothing else to do, but stab at the guy on the ground until the twitching stopped, and 2 poor pcs that got ambushed by shadows (the rest of the party ran). Low levels are pretty deadly.

My last campaign went from level 3-17, and I had about 12 or so deaths overall. Only 1 was really permanent, because it was the cleric. Mostly revivify was used, but two of them required a wish (one was the paladin who normally cast revivify, and the other had his soul lost to the Abyss). I've actually come to hate revivify because of it...

 

[Dualazi]

The problem, as Shiroiken already alluded to, isn't due to one single issue. It's a combination of resurrection magic being made available early and cheaply, combined with the death save routine as opposed to dying at 0 hp. Personally this has lead to me house-ruling that no resurrection is possible sans 9th level spells, in the interests of actually adding some real mortality to the game. I usually have intelligent monsters focus downed players when they see them get healed, which seems like a reasonable assumption to me.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I am now a player and as I see it, as long as I am uncertain how long the combat will go on and how many combat I might face until I have the chance to do a long rest or even a short one, I am worried by every single point of damage I receive.
Hovering at death's door is a terrible situation and healing counting from 0 is a good design choice.
I am however inclined to say that maybe resetting failed saves should only happen on a short rest.
Although of course 3 crosses happen faster than someone might think.
A rolled 1 and a stray area spell and over.


Sent from my GT-I9506 using EN World mobile app

 

[Rhenny]

The DM has a lot of control over when PCs live and die. That's basically the crux of it. 5e is certainly designed to allow for a deathless experience if PCs act with caution and heed warnings.

PC Death happens when PCs are either forced to adventure when they are already compromised/resource deprived, or when they bite off more than they can chew. A lot of this depends on the adventure design, the DM and how the players respond to DM description. In a game setting where PCs can encounter larger numbers of foes or foes that are clearly more powerful than they are, players need to learn that fighting is not always the answer. Of course at lower levels, this is much more of an issue than at higher levels.

DMs can telegraph through description and by giving PCs chances to make Arcana, Nature, History checks etc. to give clues to the players about the dangers that exist.

If none of the above happens - PCs ignore warning signs, or they fight against large groups of foes (without being able to clear them out with AOE, etc.), or they just hit a patch of bad luck when they are unconscious, there can be death.

In the last Phandelver session I played in (yes, I'm still playing that one in one campaign) our 3rd level party went to Thundertree looking for a dragon. My character warned the others that this did not seem like a great idea since we were relatively inexperienced (3rd level is still pretty weak). The others didn't listen so I just went along trying to temper their enthusiasm. Well, eventually, we met the creature (Venom Fang - an evil and prideful young green dragon). Our warlock had a chance to speak with Venom Fang because he had disguised himself as one of the cultists. We were all hidden 30' or so away from the warlock and the dragon. I don't know why, but the warlock basically told the dragon to attack us. Well, let's just say the warlock said the wrong thing to the dragon and he gave away our position so when the dragon stalked toward our hidden Dwarf paladin, the warlock unleashed an eldritch blast that did not penetrate the dragon's hide. We were now committed to a fight that I (as a player and as a Bladesinger PC) knew we could not win. Pretty soon, my PC ran to a wooded area and casted a rope trick so that we had a safe place to hide. I told the others to run for it. Well...to make a long story short, the warlock, the paladin, the cleric all died. The dragon took down the warlock and then flew away with his body and dropped it from the tower. The cleric was killed outright from poison breath. My PC was left with 4 hp after saving vs. the poison breath. The paladin went down once, was healed by the cleric (before he died of course) and then he saved the nearly dead Rogue, who ran away with only 1 hp. My PC sealed herself in the rope trick and rested. Then she ran for cover in a nearby barrracks that we had cleared earlier, but the dragon was aware. My PC was slashed by a flyby claw attack taking me down to 1 hp before I jumped into the building and used rope trick once again. I had to wait out the night after the rope trick ended and sneak out a window to get outside Thundertree. I was lucky...no dragon...no wandering monsters. I found a farm nearby and they took care of me. End of session.

We had a great time with this. But as you can see, the decisions that players made and the decisions that the DM made all contributed to death. That dragon was CR 8. We were 3rd level. The outcome of combat was set from the beginning. I have heard of groups who succeeded in driving the dragon away or even killing it, but that would require a very coordinated attack plan and a lot of luck.

 

[Stalker0]

That's true too. The problem that I have encountered many times in my group is this: PC goes down, monster is nearby and has the option to hit the downed PC again and force a death save or two. Players VEHEMENTLY argue that an intelligent enemy would not attack an unconscious foe, and would instead attack the other still standing PCs. Which is kind of true in a way, OTOH, if the monster doesn't make sure the character is dead, there's a very good chance she will be healed the next round or same round, pop back up like nothing happened and keep on fighting.

I'm not sure what a good solution to this is. Deliberately killing a PC through metagaming technique tends to not settle well and disrupts the fun.

This used to be my philosophy as well before 5e. But I feel that the 5e death save system has made it where its no longer in bad taste for a DM to attack unconscious players, especially if you are only going to give them 1 failed death save when you do it. Again, the chance of you killing the PC with that attack once they are in mid-levels is often very low or actually impossible.

One rule people sometimes forget btw (I have). You do not auto-crit when you attack an unconscious player. You have advantage, and if you hit you auto-crit, but you still must hit.

 

[OB1]

One of the most elegant house rules I've encountered for discouraging whack-a-mole (or healers ignoring allies til they're KOd) is to impose a level of exhaustion whenever a PC reaches 0 HP. Never used it in my own games, but I would support a DM who wanted to instate such a rule.

I combine giving exhaustion levels for failed Death Saves along with requiring a Death Save when the player first is dropped to 0 or below. Additionally, that save is made at DC10 or the damage below 0 the attack took them, whichever is higher. Currently, it also takes a short rest to rid yourself of failed death saves, but I'm thinking of making it even harder to get rid of them.

 

[Nevvur]

I combine giving exhaustion levels for failed Death Saves along with requiring a Death Save when the player first is dropped to 0 or below. Additionally, that save is made at DC10 or the damage below 0 the attack took them, whichever is higher. Currently, it also takes a short rest to rid yourself of failed death saves, but I'm thinking of making it even harder to get rid of them.

I do like the idea of basing the DC of death saves on negative HP, but the rest feels too harsh for my tastes. While it sounds like a better approximation for the trauma of injury than the standard system, this is one of those cases where I would prefer a more forgiving and occasionally silly mechanic than a realistic one. It all depends on the types of games we run, of course.