Is my warblade/swordsage build legal?

[Dragonblade]

Ok, rules lawyers and power gamers, I need your help.

So for those following my previous threads, I appreciate all the help with my sorcerer. Now I'm working on a making a Warforged Warblade (from ToB: 9 swords). At 18th level, I'm planning on taking a level of Sword Sage.

Now as far as I can tell, my Warblade and Sword Sage levels stack for purposes of determining what level maneuvers and stances I can take. So if I am a 17th level Warblade and take my 18th level as a Sword Sage, that makes my initiator level 18. Which means that I can take up to 9th level maneuvers. So I should be able to take at least 4 Desert Wind maneuvers and then take the Rising Pheonix stance as my known stance.

For those who might say I cannot take the Rising Pheonix stance because I must already have had those maneuvers from the previous level, I disagree. ToB doesn't specify but there is already a precedent set with feats. If I take a feat, it immediately qualifies me for any other feat that has the prior one as a prereq. For example, a 6th level fighter could take both Dodge and Mobility at the same time.

Does anyone think my Warblade 17/Sword Sage 1 could not take Rising Pheonix as a stance assuming I meet the prereqs by taking enough Desert Wind maneuvers? If you disagree please cite specific rules and page references as to why it would not be allowed.

 

[kigmatzomat]

I don't see anything illegal about it. IIRC, there are a few 1st level maneuvers and/or stances that have pre-reqs of "1 maneuver of same discipline" and nothing I've seen says that you can't use your other 1st level maneuvers to qualify.

I find the martial adept Initiator Level mechanic to be a little odd in comparison to Caster Level because of the level sharing. You can't mix a sorceror 1 with a wizard 16 to gain access to 9th level spells. It seems very much a PrC type of mechanic. It makes me unhappy, as it seems like the old "dipping" problem where someone would take 1 level of ranger to get a fist full of feats.

I can easily see a munchkinesque tactic of being a multiclass Crusader2/ Warblade2/ Sword Sage2. That would give you several auto-refreshing 1st level maneuvers, a couple easily refreshed 2nd level maneuvers, and a whole bunch of rarely refreshed 3rd level maneuvers, not to mention 4 or 5 stances. BAB is +5, fantabulous saves, and a scadload of specials. As long as you aren't worried about going epic and losing the epic bonus feats, this is a rich combo.

I've considered putting a house-rule limit on cross-class initiator levels to 4x the base MA class level to prevent the 20th level fighter IMC from immediately qualifying for 6th level maneuvers. That mechanic would, in your example, limit you to 2nd level sword sage maneuvers.

 

[starwed]

Now as far as I can tell, my Warblade and Sword Sage levels stack for purposes of determining what level maneuvers and stances I can take. So if I am a 17th level Warblade and take my 18th level as a Sword Sage, that makes my initiator level 18.

I believe that this is incorrect, but I don't have the book on me to cite. Somewhere, in the multiclassing rules, they give an example of a PC with two martial-adept classes and one regular class. They referred to separate initiator levels in each class, not one total initator level.

ToB doesn't specify but there is already a precedent set with feats. If I take a feat, it immediately qualifies me for any other feat that has the prior one as a prereq. For example, a 6th level fighter could take both Dodge and Mobility at the same time.

Customer service has confirmed this as legal. You can read a bunch of CustServ answers in this thread on wizard's boards.

 

[RigaMortus2]

I believe that this is incorrect, but I don't have the book on me to cite. Somewhere, in the multiclassing rules, they give an example of a PC with two martial-adept classes and one regular class. They referred to separate initiator levels in each class, not one total initator level.

This is correct. When trying to figure out initiator levels, you take the level of the martial adept class you just leveled in, and add 1/2 the level of all other classes. The example in the book (pg 39) is Crusader 7/Swordsage 5. He would have an initiator level of 9 for the Crusader (7 + half of 5 is 2 (always round down) which means he can learn 5th level Crusader maneuvers. And his initiator level for the Swordsage would be 8 (5 + half of 7 is 3), which means he can learn 4th level Swordsage maneuvers.

So in the OP's example, you would have an initiator of 17 for Warblade, and an initiator level of 9 for the Swordsage (which will allow you to learn 5th level maneuvers or lower).

 

[Dragonblade]

Good call Rigamortus2. I read that section but somehow missed the part about the Sword Sage initiator level being treated differently.

Thanks! I want to make a good character but not break the rules.

 

[Dragonblade]

One last thought. Couldn't I take the Sword Sage level to gain a bunch of Desert Wind maneuvers and then take the Martial Stance feat to take Rising Phoenix? With 17 levels of Warblade, I can qualify for up to 9th level stances and with all the Desert Wind maneuvers from my Sword Sage level it should all work out.

 

[kigmatzomat]

I believe that this is incorrect, but I don't have the book on me to cite. Somewhere, in the multiclassing rules, they give an example of a PC with two martial-adept classes and one regular class. They referred to separate initiator levels in each class, not one total initator level.

I missed that it had 2 MA classes. That's not too bad then. The crusader2/ warblade2/ swordsage2 would only have access to 2nd level maneuvers. I still think the classes are too good for dipping. One level in sword sage at around 5th level will provide a large number of utility maneuvers and pre-reqs.

 

[RigaMortus2]

One last thought. Couldn't I take the Sword Sage level to gain a bunch of Desert Wind maneuvers and then take the Martial Stance feat to take Rising Phoenix? With 17 levels of Warblade, I can qualify for up to 9th level stances and with all the Desert Wind maneuvers from my Sword Sage level it should all work out.

Well, you can do that by just taking the Martial Stance feat. You don't need Swordsage for it... Unless that particular stance has Desert Wind prereqs, then yes...

 

[FireLance]

One last thought. Couldn't I take the Sword Sage level to gain a bunch of Desert Wind maneuvers and then take the Martial Stance feat to take Rising Phoenix? With 17 levels of Warblade, I can qualify for up to 9th level stances and with all the Desert Wind maneuvers from my Sword Sage level it should all work out.

That sounds perfectly legal to me.

 

[FireLance]

I still think the classes are too good for dipping. One level in sword sage at around 5th level will provide a large number of utility maneuvers and pre-reqs.

I happen to like the martial adept classes because they are dip-friendly, actually. Taking a level of a martial adept class at CL X actually gives you the power boost you ought to get as a character of that level.

In addition, it is mitigated somewhat because the more powerful maneuvers and stances usually require one or more other maneuvers from the same school as a prerequisite, so a character still has to take some lower-level maneuvers, and since other classes only count for half to your initiator level, the power curve doesn't escalate rapidly.

I don't see it any different from taking your first level of fighter at a higher level, and immediately being able to use your fighter bonus feat to get a powerful feat with tough prerequistes.