Is Rope Trick broken!?

[Caliban]

I'm deducing that from the Sage's clarification.

I'm of the opinion that you are reading to much into his clarification. Bags of Holding may work normally within a extradimensional space, but I don't think this can reliably be concluded from the Sages statement.

Only because he didn't specifically say it. That isn't the trump card though, as the books also didn't specifically say that you could take a bag of holding into a rope trick safely either, when in fact, the rope trick spell falsely warned against it.

The rope trick never said anyting about bring a bag of holding or other device into it. The DMG defines the bag of holding and similar devices as a "non-dimensiona space" while the Rope Trick and Mord's Mansion are defined as "extra-dimensional spaces" in the PHB.

What's the difference? They don't say, other than it's dangerous to bring an extra-dimensional space into an extra-dimensional space (but they never define the danger), and it's dangerous to bring a non-dimensional space into another non-dimensional space (creates a rift into the Astral Plane), and according to the Sage it's safe to bring a non-dimensional space into an extradimensional space. The question is, can you still access the non-dimensional space when you are outside our normal space/time?

If you won't blow up the universe (figure of speach) by taking a bag of holding inside a rope trick or Mordenkain's mansion, I don't see why you couldn't use it.

Because you are outside our universe while within the extra-dimensional space created to by a rope trick and you need to be in our universe to access the non-dimensional space used by the bag of holding? (Especially since that non-dimensional space seems to be related to the Astral Plane [an Astral rift created when two bags intersect] or Ethereal Plane [Leo's secret chest is used to create the bags, and it stores items in the ethereal plane], neither of which can normally be accessed from within an extra-dimensional space.)

The Sage didn't specifically say so, so it might not be so.
The books specifically said so, and they were wrong.
Which one to trust? Choices, choices, choices.

The books didn't specifically say so, and neither did the sage.

I think it would depend greatly on how the individual DM defines the cosmology for their game world. The Manual of the Planes has some good information on this, in the first few chapters on planes and how they interact. Unfortunately it doesn't go into any detail on extra- and non- dimensional space, although you think it would be the perfect supplement to do so.

(Maybe you could us a "bag-space" concept, from the KODT comics. )

 

[kreynolds]

The books didn't specifically say so, and neither did the sage.

From the Rope Trick description:

Note: Creating an extradimensional space within or taking an extradimensional space into an existing extradimensional space is hazardous.

The book said that. This part...

taking an extradimensional space into an existing extradimensional space is hazardous.

...is completely incorrect. Extradimensional spaces created by spells do not suffer any adverse effects by bringing a bag of holding within them.

This part...

Creating an extradimensional space within .. an existing extradimensional space is hazardous.

...is completely correct.

The Sage clarified that it is indeed safe to take an extradimensional space into an existing extradimensional space that has been created by a spell.

If you can bring in the bad of holding, why couldn't you use it? It's not a question of "am I reading too much into it?", rather it's a question of "why the hell not?". I just don't see any reason why not.

 

[IceBear]

Maybe the extra dimensional space is not linked to the physical bag until you open it, and this re-linking is similar to creating an extra dimensional space?

IceBear

 

[Caliban]

From the Rope Trick description:

The Sage clarified that it is indeed safe to take an extradimensional space into an existing extradimensional space that has been created by a spell.

If you can bring in the bad of holding, why couldn't you use it? It's not a question of "am I reading too much into it?", rather it's a question of "why the hell not?". I just don't see any reason why not.

kreynolds, please do me the courtesy of actually reading my entire post, and don't waste my time by responding with garbage. You are ignoring several important bits in your response.

Namely, a bag of holding is NOT an extradimensional space, and the Sage NEVER said that it is safe to bring an extra-dimensional space into a rope trick.

 

[Caliban]

.

 

[kreynolds]

kreynolds, please actually read my entire post, or don't waste my time by responding with garbage. You are ignoring several important bits in your response.

Argh. My bad. I got interrupted while reading your post and it threw me all off. OK. Let me take a stab at this again.

You said...

Bags of Holding may work normally within a extradimensional space, but I don't think this can reliably be concluded from the Sages statement.

...and my response is "Why not?" There's nothing to say they do work, and there's nothing to say they don't. But like you said, extradimensional and non-dimensional aren't the same thing. Conversely though, if they aren't the same thing, what should it matter if they interact with one another? However, we know that they do in fact interact, and they do so in a not so happy way (bag of holding [non-dimensional] + portable hole[extradimensional]).

However, the Sage has said that extradimensional spaces created by spells pose no danger to occupants who may be using portable holes, bags of holding, and the like. Note that he didn't say "carrying...", but he said "using". If he had said carrying, I wouldn't be arguing this in the first place.

The rope trick never said anyting about bring a bag of holding or other device into it. The DMG defines the bag of holding and similar devices as a "non-dimensiona space" while the Rope Trick and Mord's Mansion are defined as "extra-dimensional spaces" in the PHB.

This is where screwed the pooch. When I read "extradimensional space inside an extradimensional space", I equated the first extradimensional space with a bag of holding, which is a non-dimensional space, so no big bang.

Namely, a bag of holding is NOT an extradimensional space, and the Sage NEVER said that it is safe to bring an extra-dimensional space into a rope trick.

True. I may have mixed up extradimensional and non-dimensional, but my argument is sound. I just totally screwed up the initial delivery.

What's the difference? They don't say, other than it's dangerous to bring an extra-dimensional space into an extra-dimensional space (but they never define the danger), and it's dangerous to bring a non-dimensional space into another non-dimensional space (creates a rift into the Astral Plane), and according to the Sage it's safe to bring a non-dimensional space into an extradimensional space. The question is, can you still access the non-dimensional space when you are outside our normal space/time?

I think you could, yes.

 

[Caliban]

Argh. My bad. I got interrupted while reading your post and it threw me all off. OK. Let me take a stab at this again.

You said...


...and my response is "Why not?" There's nothing to say they do work, and there's nothing to say they don't. But like you said, extradimensional and non-dimensional aren't the same thing. Conversely though, if they aren't the same thing, what should it matter if they interact with one another? However, we know that they do in fact interact, and they do so in a not so happy way (bag of holding [non-dimensional] + portable hole[extradimensional]).

However, the Sage has said that extradimensional spaces created by spells pose no danger to occupants who may be using portable holes, bags of holding, and the like. Note that he didn't say "carrying...", but he said "using". If he had said carrying, I wouldn't be arguing this in the first place.

Either a Portable Hole should be a non-dimensional space, or the Sage was incorrect to include portable holes in his statement.

Personally, I think it works better if the portable hole is a non-dimensional space.

As to whether or not it should work in an extra-dimensional space, I'm simply saying that the core rules don't address it, and the Sages clarification was not specific enough to go on. It would be reasonable to rule that they don't work (for the reasons I outlined previously), and it would also be reasonable to rule that they do work.

In the end, it depends on how the DM defines the cosmology for their campaign, as the default cosmology in the core rules either doesn't address it, or is inconsistent.

(It also depends on if the DM want's the PC's to have the ability to disappear down a rabbit hole, pull the hole in after them, and still have access to their complete arsenel of goodies from their bags of holding etc., and then pop out into the real world again full prepared.)

 

[kreynolds]

Either a Portable Hole should be a non-dimensional space, or the Sage was incorrect to include portable holes in his statement.

I agree. It's one or the other.

As to whether or not it should work in an extra-dimensional space, I'm simply saying that the core rules don't address it,

True.

and the Sages clarification was not specific enough to go on.

The problem is that I included the portable hole with the haversack in my earlier post, thinking that a portable hole was non-dimensional (wierd that it isn't too), and since I thought the portable hole was like a bag of holding or haversack, meaning it's non-dimensional, I assumed it would be a problem to take it into an extradimensional space. I now that non-dimensional + extradimensional is fine and safe, but for some reason or another, I thought a portable hole was non-dimensional.

In the end, it depends on how the DM defines the cosmology for their campaign, as the default cosmology in the core rules either doesn't address it, or is inconsistent.

How would redifining the cosmology help? (Cosmologies are a little over my head)

(It also depends on if the DM want's the PC's to have the ability to disappear down a rabbit hole, pull the hole in after them, and still have access to their complete arsenel of goodies from their bags of holding etc., and then pop out into the real world again full prepared.)

Hehehe. That's a really good point! Honestly, though, it doesn't bug me.

 

[Caliban]

How would redifining the cosmology help? (Cosmologies are a little over my head)

In D&D terms, the cosmology is how the univers is set up. It defines how the different planes can and do interact.

I think that non-dimensional and extra-dimensional spaces would be a special type of plane. (Extra-dimensional would definitely be. I'm not sure if the designers even know what they meant by "non-dimensional" space.)

If an extradimensional space is a new little sub-plane that is only connected to our univers at that one point, and a non-dimensional space actually resides on the astral or ethereal plane, then you wouldn't be able to access it from within the extradimensional space.

If the non-dimensional space is defined as something else, possibly as a different kind of sub-plane that only exists within the confines of the bag, then it would still be able to exist within the extradimensional space.

Basically it comes down to this: Does the bag connect to a specific spot in another plane, or does it carry it's own little sub-plane around within it, that doesn't connect or relate to any other plane (except the one the bag is currently in)?

 

[kreynolds]

In D&D terms, the cosmology is how the univers is set up. It defines how the different planes can and do interact.

I think that non-dimensional and extra-dimensional spaces would be a special type of plane. (Extra-dimensional would definitely be. I'm not sure if the designers even know what they meant by "non-dimensional" space.)

If an extradimensional space is a new little sub-plane that is only connected to our univers at that one point, and a non-dimensional space actually resides on the astral or ethereal plane, then you wouldn't be able to access it from within the extradimensional space.

If the non-dimensional space is defined as something else, possibly as a different kind of sub-plane that only exists within the confines of the bag, then it would still be able to exist within the extradimensional space.

Aha! I get ya' now.

Basically it comes down to this: Does the bag connect to a specific spot in another plane

I don't believe so.

or does it carry it's own little sub-plane around within it, that doesn't connect or relate to any other plane (except the one the bag is currently in)?

I believe this is the right one. It explains why you can take a bag of holding into an extra-dimensional space. But that still doesn't explain why the Portable Hole is extradimensional. I'd think it would make more sense for it to be non-dimensional, wouldn't you?