Is Rope Trick broken!?

[Caliban]

I believe this is the right one. It explains why you can take a bag of holding into an extra-dimensional space. But that still doesn't explain why the Portable Hole is extradimensional. I'd think it would make more sense for it to be non-dimensional, wouldn't you?

Hmm... It could explain why you get the Astral Rift when you put a bag or hole inside another one.
--The "inside" bag is trying to create a sub-plane with a single connection into the "outside" bag. The "outside" bag is only set up to have a single planar connection, and when the "inside" bag tries to create a second planer connection within it, it causes it to rip itself apart, which triggers a matching reaction from the "inside" bag. End Result: a temporary hole to the Astral Plane.

The hazard from putting an extra-dimensional space inside another extradimensional space could be this:

If you view our univers as a balloon, an extra-dimensional space would be a bubble on the side of the balloon. If you create another extradimensional space within the first one, it would create another bubble on the outside of the first one.

What happens if that first bubble closes? The second extradimensional space now has no place to connect to. It's link to the normal universe is gone, and it is completely cut off from our universe and all the planes within it, even the Astral Plane. And when the extradimensional space finally closes (because the spell duration ends or whatever), then whatever was within it is truly lost, beyond recovery.

You might be able to access it with a planeshift spell, if you had a planar fork that was attuned to that specific extradimensional space. (Better work quick.) A Gate spell might also work if you know who is within the space, or if you were in it yourself before the first one closed.

 

[kreynolds]

You might be able to access it with a planeshift spell, if you had a planar fork that was attuned to that specific extradimensional space. (Better work quick.) A Gate spell might also work if you know who is within the space, or if you were in it yourself before the first one closed.

Very true. Then should the Sage retract his statement about carrying a portable hole into an extradimensional space created by a spell? Technically, it doesn't matter if the extradimensional space originates from a magic item or a spell, as they're the exact same thing, right? A bubble inside a bubble is still a bubble inside a bubble, no matter how they got there, unless using a spell somehow miraculously stabilizes the two bubbles, which seems a little odd to me.

Or, should the portable hole be changed into a non-dimensional magic item? If it is, then taking a bag of holding into it would still be a bad thing, so I wouldn't think it would upset the rules too much.

I guess the best option is to simply strike the portable hole comment from the Sage's reply.

 

[Caliban]

Very true. Then should the Sage retract his statement about carrying a portable hole into an extradimensional space created by a spell? Technically, it doesn't matter if the extradimensional space originates from a magic item or a spell, as they're the exact same thing, right? A bubble inside a bubble is still a bubble inside a bubble, no matter how they got there, unless using a spell somehow miraculously stabilizes the two bubbles, which seems a little odd to me.

Or, should the portable hole be changed into a non-dimensional magic item? If it is, then taking a bag of holding into it would still be a bad thing, so I wouldn't think it would upset the rules too much.

I guess the best option is to simply strike the portable hole comment from the Sage's reply.

I think it works best if you consider the Portable Hole to be a non-dimensional space, like a bag or haversack.

As it stands right now, the Sage and the Core rules appear to be contradictiing each other, and in that case the Core Rules should win. So as you said, strike the portable hole comment from the Sage's reply.


I'm going to Rule 0 the portable hole to be a non-dimensional space in my home games though.

 

[GuardianLurker]

Caliban, KReynolds -

interesting discussion you two have going here. I'd like to contribute something to clarify what you all have been saying. (Knowing my luck though, I'm just going to muddy the waters, but here goes anyway.)

It seems to me, that the key points are what is meant as extra-dimensional, non-dimensional, and (by extension) dimesional. The last is easy if we convert it to its noun form - a dimension in D&D terms is another way of saying "plane" in this context. Astral Dimension == Astral Plane, for instance.

So let's change the terminology and see if it helps. Dimensional becomes planar, so "extra-dimensional" becomes "extra-planar", and "non-dimensional" becomes "non-planar".

"Extra-planar"! We already know what that means; something within the D&D cosmology, but not of our current plane. And for this to work on all planes, this means that the "extra-dimensional" spaces are probably bits of the Astral Plane that have been "walled" off. Admittedly, this turns the Astral Plane into KoDT's "Bag Space", but that's never struck me as farcical as its supposed to.

"Non-planar" is tougher though. In the standard D&D cosmology, the only way I can make sense of it, is if it extends into the "nothingness" beyond the Astral Plane. What this implies is completely DM-defined.

Using these interpretations, confounding like with like would probably produce identical results - a rift to the Astral Plane (or to a random part of the Astral Plane if you were already there). The reasons are slightly different, however. For non-dimensional spaces, you'd be essentially turning "nothingness" inside-out, causing a fracture in your current plane, which by definition is residing within the Astral Plane. For extra-dimensional spaces, you'd end up trying to step "beyond" the Astral Plane, into the nothingness, which opens a fracture, etc. Alternatively, this could work as an uncontrolled plane shift, opening a gate to an arbitrary plane.

Mind you, all of that conjecture was formulated without reference to any of the 3e rules, so it may or may not be satisfactory.

Hope the babble was helpful...

 

[kreynolds]

As it stands right now, the Sage and the Core rules appear to be contradictiing each other, and in that case the Core Rules should win. So as you said, strike the portable hole comment from the Sage's reply.

I plan too.

I think it works best if you consider the Portable Hole to be a non-dimensional space, like a bag or haversack.

I just thought of something though. The portable hole contains only 10 minutes of air for 1 medium-size creature, or two small creatures. Obviously, this implies a limited space.

However, a bag of holding states that it also contains only 10 minutes worth of air, but it doesn't mention a limit as to how many creatures can be placed inside, which could mean that no matter how many creatures are inside, whether it be one creature or twenty, they still get 10 minutes worth of air.

Also, a bag isn't limited by interior space, but by total weight. Whereas a portable hole is limited by interior space, but not by weight. You could fill the sucker with gold coins and it would never get heavier.

So, does that mean that non-dimensional devices are limited by the total mass of their contents and not size, and that extradimensional devices are limited by the total amount of space consumed by their contents and not weight? If this is correct, then changing the portable hole into a non-dimensional device would cause it to function more like a bag of holding and it would now be limited by weight, and not the size of it's contents.

 

[GuardianLurker]

However, a bag of holding states that it also contains only 10 minutes worth of air, but it doesn't mention a limit as to how many creatures can be placed inside, which could mean that no matter how many creatures are inside, whether it be one creature or twenty, they still get 10 minutes worth of air.

Also, a bag isn't limited by interior space, but by total weight.

I thought they were also limited by space as well - X cubic feet or Y pounds, whichever comes first.

But that's immaterial to the point I was going to make. A weight limit also implies a "number" of creatures limit, unless you've done something to reduce the weight. (Ditto for the cube limit.)

Actually, both the largest bag and a portable hole are approx. the same size (the hole's a little bigger), so they should probably have the same limits as far as air supply goes (with smaller bags having correspondingly less).

As for my earlier post, well, you guys had already moved past me by the time I finished it. Must type faster.

Edit :
I also noticed (much later than I should have) that the current Core/SRD rules actually say Extra-dimensional (bag) + Non-dimensional (hole) == Bad Thing.

So it may be perfectly safe to combine Extra+Extra (as the FAQ says), and/or Non+Non (which the FAQ doesn't address), and the error in the FAQ maybe classifying a Portable Hole as extra-dimensional.

I know you both have probably already caught that, so this is probably pointless.

 

[kreynolds]

Extra-dimensional (bag) + Non-dimensional (hole)

This should be reversed.

From the SRD
The bag of holding opens into a nondimensional space...

From the SRD
When spread upon any surface, it causes an extradimensional space 10 feet deep to come into being...

According to the SRD, a Bag of Holding is non-dimensional, while a Portable Hole is extradimensional.

But it gets better. Both the SRD and the DMG then contradict themselves about the Portable Hole. Check it out...

From the SRD
Each portable hole opens on its own particular nondimensional space.

The above quote can be found in the second paragraph of the item description, just after the air bit. Cute, isn't it?

I thought they were also limited by space as well - X cubic feet or Y pounds, whichever comes first.

Yes. You're correct, partially. The Bags of Holding do indeed have a cubic foot limit, as does a Portable Hole. However, as I mentioned above, the Portable Hole does not have a weight limit, only a cubic foot limit. In fact, no matter how much you place in the Portable Hole, it never has any notable weight at all. The lack of a weight limit is what initially caught my eye.

Actually, both the largest bag and a portable hole are approx. the same size (the hole's a little bigger), so they should probably have the same limits as far as air supply goes (with smaller bags having correspondingly less).

I can't argue that. Thanks for pointing out the cubic foot limit with the Bags of Holding.

the error in the FAQ maybe classifying a Portable Hole as extra-dimensional.

I'm nearly inclined to agree.

 

[Joral]

Caliban, KReynolds -

interesting discussion you two have going here. I'd like to contribute something to clarify what you all have been saying. (Knowing my luck though, I'm just going to muddy the waters, but here goes anyway.)

It seems to me, that the key points are what is meant as extra-dimensional, non-dimensional, and (by extension) dimesional. The last is easy if we convert it to its noun form - a dimension in D&D terms is another way of saying "plane" in this context. Astral Dimension == Astral Plane, for instance.

So let's change the terminology and see if it helps. Dimensional becomes planar, so "extra-dimensional" becomes "extra-planar", and "non-dimensional" becomes "non-planar".

"Extra-planar"! We already know what that means; something within the D&D cosmology, but not of our current plane. And for this to work on all planes, this means that the "extra-dimensional" spaces are probably bits of the Astral Plane that have been "walled" off. Admittedly, this turns the Astral Plane into KoDT's "Bag Space", but that's never struck me as farcical as its supposed to.

"Non-planar" is tougher though. In the standard D&D cosmology, the only way I can make sense of it, is if it extends into the "nothingness" beyond the Astral Plane. What this implies is completely DM-defined.

Using these interpretations, confounding like with like would probably produce identical results - a rift to the Astral Plane (or to a random part of the Astral Plane if you were already there). The reasons are slightly different, however. For non-dimensional spaces, you'd be essentially turning "nothingness" inside-out, causing a fracture in your current plane, which by definition is residing within the Astral Plane. For extra-dimensional spaces, you'd end up trying to step "beyond" the Astral Plane, into the nothingness, which opens a fracture, etc. Alternatively, this could work as an uncontrolled plane shift, opening a gate to an arbitrary plane.

Mind you, all of that conjecture was formulated without reference to any of the 3e rules, so it may or may not be satisfactory.

Hope the babble was helpful...

Extradimensional...Nondimensional..astral...space...planes of reality......Uh uh uh

JORAL'S HEAD EXPLODES FROM THINKING ABOUT THIS TOO MUCH!!!

Edit: This forum really needs an exploding head smilie like in "Nutkinland(tm)"

 

[Jeremy]

<hobbles around salvaging parts, from two lips he puts together he manages>

Don't feel bad, happened to me too a bit earlier in the thread. At least you lasted longer. Do you need that eye? It's awful dark...

 

[GuardianLurker]

This should be reversed.

Yarf. My bad. Should have caught that one...