• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D 5E Is there beef between Mearls and Cook?

Ratskinner

Adventurer
1e, your full movement of 120,* 90 or 60' depending on armor/encumbrance, and you could intersperse attacks among your movement if you had 'em. It was a full one-minute round, afterall. (There were different movement rates per turn in different environments or circumstances, but i don't recall if there was a run or 'double move' or anything you could do in combat /instead/ of attacking....)

I've seen several different AD&D/OSR tables and some also have (quite bizarre to my eyes) rules for "charging" attacks for combatants on foot. As in "My fighter charges the Ogre for -2 AC and +2 to hit." vs. "My fighter charges the Ogre for double damage." vs. "My fighter charges the Ogre....um, Huzzah?" Interestingly, each table seems to consider their rules a direct obvious extrapolation from (if not interpretation of) the "Old School" rules.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Tony Vargas

Legend
I've seen several different AD&D/OSR tables and some also have (quite bizarre to my eyes) rules for "charging" attacks for combatants on foot. As in "My fighter charges the Ogre for -2 AC and +2 to hit." vs. "My fighter charges the Ogre for double damage." vs. "My fighter charges the Ogre....um, Huzzah?" Interestingly, each table seems to consider their rules a direct obvious extrapolation from (if not interpretation of) the "Old School" rules.
Yep, variants like that were so much the norm in the early days that many of us remember variants our groups used as 'RAW' and actual rules as some variant we heard about once... ;)

I don't recall the rule for charging, just that there were weapons that did double damage when set to receive an opponent's charge... Ironic if you could charge, then. ;)
 

Ratskinner

Adventurer
Yep, variants like that were so much the norm in the early days that many of us remember variants our groups used as 'RAW' and actual rules as some variant we heard about once... ;)

Oh yeah. I find OSR community/movement to be unified only in their disdain and disparagement of users of later rulesets and appreciation for the traditional "get off my lawn!" attitude. Even though I've played in a goodly number of such groups (depending on how you count a group that disbands and re-forms with 2/5ths new members) going back to the mid-80's, I am still regularly surprised at the things I read Old-timers saying were "commonplace" back in the old days...'cause I never saw 'em.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I am still regularly surprised at the things I read Old-timers saying were "commonplace" back in the old days...'cause I never saw 'em.
The community was a lot more fragmented (not divided) by geographic lines back then. No ENWorld or Gleemax or mailing lists or UseNet or even BBSs...

...the September that Never Ended brought nerd sub-cultures like ours together in a big way. It seems almost monolithic, now, where before every region, every con, every group had their own separate little group-thinks, by '03 it was RAW and community consensus.

Hmm... in a way, after the edition war and the playtest almost fetishizing 'inclusiveness,' as well as in the more obvious way of rulings-not-rules & DM Empowerment - we are back to being a less monolithic community. Not because we aren't aware of eachother's variations, but because we need to learn to tolerate their existence...
 

I think I agree with this, but one thing I cant escape is how each edition can be seen to overreact to a problem in the previous edition. For example the way that 4e standardised classes to make martial and magic classes on par to avoid the "angel summoner and bmx bandit" problem of 3ed. While I personally could live with this standardization (because I found DMing mid and high level 3ed with a wizard PC horrible), I can see how it annoyed many.

Oh there's definitely been a ton of what we'd now call overcorrections. And, yeah, DMing 4e was very easy. It just wasn't the game that most players wanted for D&D. It's a fantastic tabletop skirmishing game, though.


Problem?
That'd DM Empowerment, and it's back!

But, yeah, there's been a pendulum swing between DM-focus and Player-focus. The classic game was very DM-focused, the first two eds of the WotC era very player-focused, and 5e is back to a DM focus.

Actually, I don't think it was DM Empowerment at all.

I think that with the way mechanics worked in 1e/2e it was impossible to tell how the game was supposed to be played. There's no conveyance in the early game rules at all. The mechanics were all different and often needlessly cryptic so you could never tell by looking at a mechanism whether accomplishing something was supposed to be easy or hard. Like, look at the grapple rules. Is it supposed to be easy or hard to grapple an opponent? Well, clearly it's supposed to be hard because these rules are arcane and cumbersome, but it's impossible to get any sense of what they mean. So when your players want to do something that has no mechanic... what do you do? Do you use d% like most class abilities (move silent, pick pocket) and ability score abilities are (learn spell, bend bars, system shock, etc.)? Do you use the "roll under your relevant ability score" ability check even though that ignores level? Use a saving throw even though that is wildly different between classes and pretty arbitrary overall? Do you ignore that and just wing it with no dice rolling?

The 1e DMG has like one page on actually running the game well (the introduction), and then sprinkled throughout the rest of the book it constantly reminds the DM to not let the players get away with things because they're sneaky bastards. What is a new DM supposed to take away from that?

With no mechanical conveyance and often adversarial language throughout the DMG, exactly how are new players going to interpret the game? Now, no, the 1e DMG itself isn't mean or unfair about things, but it often just presumes the DM is going to act fairly and seldom reminds the DM that fairness and fun are what he's there to ensure. I'm saying that if you go into the DMG with the presumption of being unfair, the book doesn't try very hard to dissuade you from that unless you read the introduction. It's like saying, "Now Warden, remember to be fair and ensure the security of your charges. Now let me show you the torture rooms and implements execution and explain their use."
 

shoak1

Banned
Banned
My understanding from some published interviews with Skip Williams, one of the other lead designers of 3e, is that defining the rules and leaving less to a GM's off-the-cuff rulings would be good for players because they'd have more information on what to expect from their decisions from an independent source - the rules. There'd be less asking the DM "can I do this", "is this in range", "can I get both of the orcs in my burning hands" and more looking at the situation, applying the rules, and knowing whether or not they could do so or at least have a very good idea what their chances were if it depended on a die roll. They'd be able to make more meaningful decisions on their own part rather than leaving it entirely up to the DM to ascribe meaning to their choices via the black box workings of their brains.

And I think it performed that job quite well. While there were inevitable debates over the meaning of certain rules that would make even a lawyer back away in horror, 3e offered a much tighter and better defined set of rules than previous editions.

I see sandbox as hand-in-hand with Big DM. 3.5 was about set piece encounters pre-defined, allowing players to compete against preset scenarios (PvE if you will) instead of the whim of the DM that you get from sandbox/5e play (PvDM). 5e really makes the game more about the DM than it does the players, making it less of a game and more of a story that evolves as the DM sees fit. Big DM and Big Story make 5e a full pendulum swing different from previous editions. Its frustrating that people never learn that extremes = not good.
 

shoak1

Banned
Banned
Problem?
That'd DM Empowerment, and it's back!

But, yeah, there's been a pendulum swing between DM-focus and Player-focus. The classic game was very DM-focused, the first two eds of the WotC era very player-focused, and 5e is back to a DM focus.

I'll never get why people want to swing the pendulum so far one way - are the completely clueless that it will just result in an equal swing the other way?!?!

Tomb of Annhilation is a perfect example. 125 pages of partially outlined areas before getting to the first detailed encounter area. 13 pages of random encounter stuff so that sandboxers can go running around wherever they want. Do the designers devote a single page out of 260 to rest/linear play guidelines? Maybe a page devoted to a chart showing different encounter sizes based on diff.number of PCs and/or skill level, for those of us looking for challenging encounters? Nata. Just a bunch of broad strokes and fill in the blanks as you go stuff. Of course they DID find room in the page count for a sidebar on creating Chultan names on the fly - AWESOMMMMMEEEE!!!!!!!!! Oh, and a full page for adventure hooks by PC background........

ToA is not a total loss - at least it has three nice sized, reasonably detailed encounter areas partially ready for consumption. You just have to replace all the imbalanced ridiculous CR encounters ("Gosh look its a ....OMG!!!!!!!....a....a........giant constrictor snake!!!!!! (screams)"...lol), rewrite the treasure to be within....5e guidelines.....and rewrite the CR/XP flow to be .......within 5e guidelines.

Feel free to follow your own guidelines 5e designers.....[Shoak1 shakes his head back and forth and rolls his eyes in disgust]
 
Last edited:

Valetudo

Adventurer
I see sandbox as hand-in-hand with Big DM. 3.5 was about set piece encounters pre-defined, allowing players to compete against preset scenarios (PvE if you will) instead of the whim of the DM that you get from sandbox/5e play (PvDM). 5e really makes the game more about the DM than it does the players, making it less of a game and more of a story that evolves as the DM sees fit. Big DM and Big Story make 5e a full pendulum swing different from previous editions. Its frustrating that people never learn that extremes = not good.
You kinda sound like you think dnd should run like a videogame. Its my experience that players never play an adventure as a preset scenerios. Players dont tend to run in a straight line if you know what I mean.
 


Zippee

First Post
3E was supposed to protect players from poor GMs by having a rule for everything - everybody would know what the rules were, so no arbitrary rulings from bad GMs.

This is probably the most insidious and destructive conclusion drawn out of 3ed development. The concept that players needed the rules to 'protect them from bad GMs', that the players should 'know the rules' so that DMs couldn't make stuff up. This rapidly became 'DM's cheat if they don't use the RAW' and the players are the arbiters of the RAW and what and when something should apply.

This right here, changed the game more fundamentally than any actual game mechanic.
 
Last edited:

Remove ads

Top