D&D 5E Is Warlock broken?

[jgsugden]

In my experience:

Level 1: Warlock blasts away with a crossbow.
Level 2 to 10: Warlock spends almost all spell slots on Hex, but they mix in a few spells. Some warlocks use a lot of unlimited Silent Image or Rituals. You often find a Pearl of Power and/or Rod of the Pact Keeper adding an additional spell for them to cast which helps a bit.
Level 11 to 16: With 3 slots per SR and the higher level spells, Warlock begins to feel more like other spellcasters. You can spend 2 or 3 slots per combat. Many warlocks come into the possession of a wand or staff in these levels... which allows them to cast a few more spells per day.
Level 17 to 19: You're honestly the strongest spellcaster in the group with the highest saving throws for your spells and an array of nasty spells at your beck and call.
Level 20: You go into overdrive with a lot of powerful spells in your hands. I have not played a Warlock at 20th level for long, but it was ridiculous when I did. He had a +3 Rod of the Pact Keeper, Robe of the Archmage and a Staff of Fire - and he cast spells constantly.

 

[Chris Tooley]

I dunno. Maybe I'm just being whiney. It just seems the designers took away what made warlocks special (cantrips) and gave them to every spell caster but didn't compensate.
I LOVE the fact that other casters have cantrips. That was sorely needed, IMO. But the 5th edition warlock just seems...meh to me and it was my favorite in 3rd edition.

 

[Mistwell]

I dunno. Maybe I'm just being whiney. It just seems the designers took away what made warlocks special (cantrips) and gave them to every spell caster but didn't compensate.
I LOVE the fact that other casters have cantrips. That was sorely needed, IMO. But the 5th edition warlock just seems...meh to me and it was my favorite in 3rd edition.

How has it played in your games? We're finding our Warlock is starting to really excel around level 5. Of course, he did find a ring of spell storing, but that hasn't been the most important increase in his interactions.

 

[Chris Tooley]

In my experience:.

Maybe this is an issue for me. Perhaps I haven't looked hard enough at the big picture. Characters in our campaigns rarely see higher levels (10+).

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I'm not going to defend warlock as the best class ever, but I am going to clear up some misconceptions.

Im playing 5e right from 3e. What bothers me most about the 5e warlock is it feels more like a spellcaster with a few tricks.

3e warlock was its own thing. 4e warlock was a spellcaster (though spellcaster wasn't so much of its own thing, so that doesn't exactly translate). 5e warlock is a hybrid of both. There are three elements of its basic class power (not counting subclass): full spellcasting (ie, 9th level spells), invocations, and eldritch blast.

One must assimilate those facts in order to understand the 5e warlock.

Or even an Eldritch Knight with a couple tricks.

Eldritch Knight's spellcasting should never be compared to classes with spells off of 9th level lists.

In 3e they were mysterious forces of the unnatural.

Yeah, it was a pretty cool concept. I always wanted to play one.

No spell lists but a limited number of useful invocations.

Which is a big difference from current design, which means we have to assume their total invocation power will be less to accommodate the massive increase in spellcasting power (from none to 9th level).

The classes greatest feature was it's ability to cast EB at will. In 5th edition EVERYONE can have at will damaging cantrips (albeit many classes require a feat).

The warlock is supposed to take Agonizing Blast*, and only the warlock can take it. The power of eldritch blast with Agonizing Blast is much, much higher than eldritch blast without.

Also, eldritch blast is the best attack cantrip in the game because it has high damage, long range, can make multiple attacks (and benefit from anything that can benefit multiple attacks, like hex and Agonizing Blast obviously), and is of a damage type that virtually nothing has resistance or immunity to. (Only Rakshasa off the top of my head.) Anyone can take it with the price of a single feat, of course, although they won't get Agonizing Blast.

3e EB could have hindering CONDITIONS applied to the target with the right Invocations.

It's true that there isn't much in this department yet in 5e. Three total invocations (four if you count the range increase) that tack an effect on to eldritch blast from the PHB and Xanathar's Guide to Everything. There isn't any design reason why there couldn't be more though, as long as they kept within the same power level as the examples.

Invocations have been changed into users per day spell slots in some cases and straight 1 use per day abilities in other cases.

I'm not sure if you are referring to the addition of spellcasting, or referring to the spells that cast invocations, but in either case this seems like a misguided focus to me. The spellcasting addition is something different, though you are correct that it does reduce the class's focus on invocations. As far as the invocations that grant limited use spellcasting, most of those are the crap invocations. I understand why they work they way they do, but it would have been nice if they had included perhaps two spells in one invocation with that mechanic. Rather, the best invocations are the at-will ones, just like in 3e. Most invocations in 5e are at-will. Those are the ones you want to focus on taking. They are a major part of customizing the warlock to do what you want it to. You can almost build your own class by your selection of invocations.

EB is a great cantrips, sure but even a barbarian can use it with a feat. Or any class can with a dip.

Yes, but Agonizing Blast doesn't come with the feat.

[/quote]5e warlocks who wish to remain optimum HAVE to pick certain Invocations.[/quote]

This is true, and is a major failure of the class design.

And yes while some of the higher level Invocations are great, many of them are merely utility. I've never thought the warlock wad underpowered or over powered in 3e. Had wizards hand me my butt a few times.

I think that utility is pretty useful (heh). Lots of cool ways to put together an interesting character. Granted, I'd like it if there were several more cool invocation options, but I felt exactly the same way about the 3e warlock. WotC always seems to skimp on the invocations.

I just don't feel like 5e warlocks have anything that makes them stand out as a character I'd happily take from level 1 to 20 anymore...

I guess that's just a matter of preference. Even though I liked the 3e version, I actually like the 5e version better. I think the addition of spellcasting really expands their repertoire, and their eldritch blast with Agonizing Blast does really good damage by 5e standards. I don't see that 5e warlock is more prone for just blasting in combat than 3e warlock was. They both mostly used eldritch blam as their standard attack option, with some occasional supplements. 5e's supplements are as likely to come from spells as from invocations, and that's the main difference from what I can see.


*It is poor design that this is made optional. One way they could have prevented the Bladelock underperformance problems and the mandatory Agonizing Blast invocation tax would have been to make the function of Agonizing Blast as Pact of the Tome basic feature. They could have given different damage buffs to Chain and Blade, and both problems evaporate.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

I think that if you actually look at what the 5e warlock does*, I think it is meant to be a very out of combat class (good for interaction or espionage type things) that gets EB so that the warlock "can pull his/her weight in combat." So if out of combat stuff doesn't interest you (or you know you won't be doing a lot of it), then I suggest either multiclassing or looking a different class (possibly with the magic initiate feat).

* This isn't to suggest that I think this is what the warlock should be doing**, but what I think the chassis actually supports with minimal effort from the player.

** If it was up to me the warlock would double down on the creepiness, maybe not being able to cast anything other than cantrips (and maybe not even them if you are a bladelock or a chainlock) and nondamaging spells/invocations until you hurt something (with a int score higher than 3, so no bag of rats). And instead of a set number of spell slots, you cast spells based on how much damage you did, which would make the warlock a slow starter, but a big finisher (as your spells do more damage, you cast bigger spells).

 

[Wiseblood]

Ranger is a favorite topic to discuss, especially Beastmaster. We've seen several UA revisions and far more fan "fixes". Most of the other classes seem all right, or at least seldom discussed.

But what about Warlock? Everyone agrees that a two-level dip is OP for CHA classes, but beyond that, how does everyone feel at this point about the full twenty-level class?

I've played one for a number of levels, and was left unsatisfied. With only two spell slots, one was always needed for Hex and the other saved for an emergency. Concentration was almost always tied up with Hex, taking away many of your options. Instead of your most thematic spells coming automatically, as is the case with Cleric domains, they are instead choices to be made...further limiting you, when your tight number of spells are already highly restrictive.

The short rest mechanic has already been discussed as problematic. It's seldom to see 6-8 encounters in a day. With 1-2 significant events, the "5 minute workday" classes have a huge edge. Unless the DM forces the group onward, any time the group has time to stop they'll push for a full rest instead of a short one. If you have time for one hour, you usually have time for seven more. And even though they were unwise to waste their abilities too soon, those classes are often not punished for this...if you were to push them onward, you would be risking a TPK, so as a group you have to fall back or rest.

The punishment seems harsher for you as well. Without Wildshapes Moon Druids still have full spellcasting and Battlemaster Fighters when out of maneuvers still have four attacks in plate mail, but without spells you're left with nothing but Eldritch Blast and a few Invocations (some likely also tied to EB). If you do pick up a short rest, you'll regain at most two spells. But the party Wizard likely will as well with his Arcane Recovery, reducing the "cool factor" of your main class ability.

Tomelocks are interesting due to their number of rituals, but in all likelihood you'll already have the more popular Cleric and Wizard classes in the party already, making this redundant. At best you can pick up a few niche abilities that fall through others' cracks, instead of you becoming a master of forbidden magic.

Chainlocks suffer some of the same problems as Beastmasters in having to sacrifice their action to allow their pet to attack. They're hindered further by their pet being weaker, and by Find Familiar being a ritual open to Tomelocks or anyone via feat, giving others a large amount of what they'd otherwise receive.

Bladelocks were an early attempt to create an arcane gish, but with the SCAG cantrips now available anyone can pick these up with cantrip selections or a feat. That combined with their lack of armor makes them less effective than many other possible builds.

It seems that the only "correct" way to play a Warlock is to play something else instead. If you want to play a dark magician, take two levels then Shadow Sorcerer 18. If you want to play a Hexblade, start Paladin, dip a few levels for your Pact Magic and cool summon blade, then break that oath and continue on with your melee class. If you want to be a mind-taker then Mystic is coming (complete with Far Realms influence!), or refluff Lore Bard after you pick up EB for your attack. If you just want to be questionably evil, fluff that up with RP or take Initiate (Warlock) for a few flavor spells.

Before you comment, I know the only "correct" way is the way that's most fun. But Warlock as designed has problems that keep it from being fun. In combat you're almost always spamming EB because there's little reason not to. You have few other options, and you're at-will option is one of the best. In-game I attempted to disguise myself as a magician, but the party was suspicious when I never actually cast any spells? The reason being that as a player, I never could afford to...I needed to conserve my precious slots, because more often than not I only had two for the entire day. The ONLY trick I had was EB, and it was so nice others were wanting to take the level dip to have what I had plus everything else from their own class. I made it to Level 6, still only halfway until I got another spell for the day, while the party Wizard was already casting TEN spells, three at the highest level, with multiple in a single combat knowing a rest would likely be coming soon.

The other problem, though this is more of a DM one, is I've only seen one DM that really played up the Patron angle? In a class so dripping with flavor, people treat dipping here as common as picking up a little martial training (i.e. Fighter) instead of literally selling your soul to an actual devil. Along with perhaps Paladin, this should be one of the most RP-heavy classes due to it's very nature.

Has anyone else tried playing a straight Warlock 20? How does it stand against your Bladesingers or Mystics or Shadow Sorcerers now that the newer options and UA playtests are starting to appear? Has power creep completely outdated this class, and what should be done to make this a viable option? Is anything needed here, similar to saving the Beastmaster Ranger, or should it be left to stand as-is?

Role playing aside it seems inflexible to me because EB is clearly superior to weapons for warlocks.

Short rest dependency is a crap shoot because it is campaign and DM dependent. (As all things are but I argue that this is a bigger make it or break it point for the warlock)

Warlock is thematically interesting to me I do not like the name but that is a minor quibble. The warlock mechanics are the reason I will play something else instead.

 

[merwins]

I think that if you actually look at what the 5e warlock does*, I think it is meant to be a very out of combat class (good for interaction or espionage type things) that gets EB so that the warlock "can pull his/her weight in combat." So if out of combat stuff doesn't interest you (or you know you won't be doing a lot of it), then I suggest either multiclassing or looking a different class (possibly with the magic initiate feat).

Hit the nail on the head. Give me a Warlock 20 and I can damn near rule the world if I set my mind to it -- and never need to set foot in a combat situation.

Yeah, there's ONE magic item that might help, but it's a not a combat-related item.