Is Wraithstrike the wrong level?

[Rystil Arden]

This I would disagree with. Wraithstrike is strong but not so strong that it is better than a 6th level spell. It gives a huge bonus to hit because it is a touch attack.

However, 6th level makes some things change:

1) Low level dips can no longer acquire it. You need a focused Fighter/mage to acquire this spell requiring 11 levels of casting. This is becoming a good boost for an Eldritch Knight (at least 13th level for this class combination assuming it is based on wizard).

At 13th level the Wizard is casting Finger of Death, Reverse Gravity and Forcecage. Heck, even distintegrate is likely to do as much damage as a full attack action.

2) One of the nice things about Wraithstrike is that it comes out of spells that are rarely used but remains highly effective at high levels. Unenhanced second level spells are rarely effective uses of an action at 10th level. Wrathstrike was a notable exception to this rule.

3) Other metamagic competes. Using of Energy Substitution (to avoid energy resistence) and Empower on Scorching Ray is a 5th level spell. The 6th level equivalent is Maximize or Twin. Doing 24d6 (twinned) damage as a ranged touch attack at 50 feet plus (by this level) is generally easier to pull off than a full attack that requires getting close and is less investment than a charge based Wraithstrike.

4) Adding this spell to other lists (for example, via Extra Spell should you beleive that works) is no longer a complete no brainer for Paladins and Rangers. Only full casters with Quicken spell as a feat will see this as a potentially worthwhile investment.


It is still a decent use of a 6th level spell. But, now, it appears that there are choices that might be equally good or there is a requirement for a lot of investment in a particular strategy. I don't mind if careful investment can provide good options for a character. In particular, once multiple feats start to make sense then I think that the character is picking an option. That is good.

Once there is choice the spell starts to balance.

@Twinned Scorching Ray: If you're Energy-Subbing on the fly, then you're a sorcerer (and you can only Energy Sub to one element anyway, unless you took it multiple times), otherwise you were blindly guessing. The 24d6 is distributed in 6 discrete packages, which means that even Energy Resistance 10 is going to bring your average down from 84 to 24. And even at 84, that's much less than a crazy Wraithstrike Full Attack, and it allows SR.

Wraithstrike (used correctly on a Power Attacking full attack, of course) is clearly superior to both Finger of Death and Disintegrate because it does not allow a Fortitude Save. Take a look at the Fort saves on most critters, and you'll see why, unfortunately.

 

[Mort]

Yeah, maybe if you only have 1 or 2 encounters a day. Often PCs can't choose when and where they would like to rest to get their spells back, or if they get attacked at night. So the PC that drains all his spells on Wraithstrike will be SOL to the character that can continue to do touch attacks on later encounters.

Arguing that something is balanced because it can be used only a few times per day has flaws:

First - the ability can be used quite a few more than "a few" times:

At 10th level+
A sorcerer fighter mage will have this spell available 6+ times per day, which means when they need it they will have it. A wizard fighter/mage will likely only devote 2 of his 5-6 slots to it, but that also means, if they need it they will have it (plus 2nd level pearls of power are well worth it for this kind of situation).

Second – It’s not just a question of how many times per day you can do something, but what you can do, not all encounters per day require large amounts of resources. Kind of the – we need to kill this thing RIGHT NOW, option. It’s pretty big when the “right now” option is available as a 2nd level spell. As I said above, the balance differential is huge. 1 touch attack is nice but at high levels the psiwar or sword adept has several options that are better. The fact that the high level fighter/mage has a 2nd level spell as one of his best options seems odd. But again let's look at the balance differential (I'll use 15th level because the difference is really shown once 3+ attacks are involved and at this level both the characters have 3+ attacks)


Ok – quick analysis 15th level psychic warrior’s deep impact vs. fighter 1/wizard 6/Eldrich knight 8 using wraithstrike (I’ll try to balance the builds, but must admit psionics is not my strong suit I have little experience with it).

Psychic Warrior 15: BAB: +11/+6/+1, STR: 16 other stats irrelevant at this time.
Feats: Weapon Focus: greatsword, psionic weapon, power attack, dodge, speed of thought, mobility, spring attack, deep impact.
Weapon: greatsword +3, to hit: =18/+13/+8
Damage: 2d6+7

Fighter/mage 15(ftr 1/Wiz 6/EK 8): BAB +12/+7/+2 STR: 16 other stats irrelevant at this time.
Feats: Weapon Focus: greatsword, power attack, arcane strike, others not that relevant (gets 7 others I believe).
Weapon greatsword +3, to hit +19/+14/+9
Damage: 2d6+7

Opponent – standard Nalfeshnee Demon (picked out of CR 14 MM monsters (initially did a 14th level comparison))
AC: 27/touch 9 HP:175

Psychic Warrior using deep impact:
Average damage per round: 34.2 (not counting criticals, damage arrived by using full power attack and all three attacks). The psychic warrior can do this, at best, every other round. I’m sure the psychic warrior has some better options than this damage output.

End result: not much other than an angry demon that you are now standing right next to (get around this with a spring attack instead of full attack at minimal cost). Even if the attack came late in the round, the Nalfeshnee is likely still up. I would like to know if there is anything that can add a lot to this combo.

Fighter/mage using wraithstrike.:
Average damage per round (not counting criticals): 81.7, the fighter/mage can do this several consecutive rounds if necessary. That’s almost 2.5 times better than the psychic warrior for the round.

But that’s not the kicker. As I said the true power comes from the “I need to kill this now” potential. If the fighter/mage needs to, he can arcane strike up to a 6th level spell 2 or so times per day (3 if a specialist). This puts average damage up substantially (partially from the increased chance of any given attack hitting): 98.8 from weapon damage and 39 from arcane strike: total average damage: 137.8. I’m not sure the fighter/mage has a better option available (disintegrate, on the off chance the demon fails its save has an average damage of 105 at this level).

End result: One seriously hurt demon. If the psychic warrior (above) attacked 1st the Nalfeshnee is almost dropped.

P.S. this was all done rather fast and I can’t vouch for the math being perfect, but it’s pretty close.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I think the Nalfeshnee is probably dead. After all, the fighter/mage probably has a belt of giant strength to boost his strength to 20 or so and a +1 holy greatsword that's greater magic weaponed up to +3. That will earn him an additional 20 points of damage per hit (including the penetration of DR in the equation). A normal fighter/mage will probably also have boots of speed or bracers of the quick strike for use with that "I need to kill it now" option to really boost the damage.

 

[Votan]

@Twinned Scorching Ray: If you're Energy-Subbing on the fly, then you're a sorcerer (and you can only Energy Sub to one element anyway, unless you took it multiple times), otherwise you were blindly guessing. The 24d6 is distributed in 6 discrete packages, which means that even Energy Resistance 10 is going to bring your average down from 84 to 24. And even at 84, that's much less than a crazy Wraithstrike Full Attack, and it allows SR.

Wraithstrike (used correctly on a Power Attacking full attack, of course) is clearly superior to both Finger of Death and Disintegrate because it does not allow a Fortitude Save. Take a look at the Fort saves on most critters, and you'll see why, unfortunately.

I can see the argument that Wraithstrike may not be necessarily balanced if it took a move action to cast because of Quicken. However, as a sixth level spell, casting a Quicekend Wraithstrike is a significant use of resources until the very highest levels. I think that the status of Wraithstrike as a second level spell is extremely telling given that a cogent argument can be made for it to be strong at sixth level.

Banned, increased casting time or raised in level; I think we could argue the fine details but I do think that this argument supports Wraithstrike as being as too strong for level 2 as written.

Wraithstrike does fail against some opponents (those with very high touch ACs) and so, like many spells, it can be stronger because it is less reliable.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Arguing that something is balanced because it can be used only a few times per day has flaws:

First - the ability can be used quite a few more than "a few" times:

At 10th level+
A sorcerer fighter mage will have this spell available 6+ times per day, which means when they need it they will have it. A wizard fighter/mage will likely only devote 2 of his 5-6 slots to it, but that also means, if they need it they will have it (plus 2nd level pearls of power are well worth it for this kind of situation).

6 times a day is basically 6 rounds of combat. Hardly game breaking. And again, the kind of character that is using Wraithstrike will also have other spells they'll want to take advantage of as well, so not every 2nd lvl+ slot will be used on Wraithstrike. And then you factor in Arcane Strike and that will also mitigate it's use.

Second – It’s not just a question of how many times per day you can do something, but what you can do, not all encounters per day require large amounts of resources. Kind of the – we need to kill this thing RIGHT NOW, option. It’s pretty big when the “right now” option is available as a 2nd level spell. As I said above, the balance differential is huge. 1 touch attack is nice but at high levels the psiwar or sword adept has several options that are better. The fact that the high level fighter/mage has a 2nd level spell as one of his best options seems odd. But again let's look at the balance differential (I'll use 15th level because the difference is really shown once 3+ attacks are involved and at this level both the characters have 3+ attacks)

Ok – quick analysis 15th level psychic warrior’s deep impact vs. fighter 1/wizard 6/Eldrich knight 8 using wraithstrike (I’ll try to balance the builds, but must admit psionics is not my strong suit I have little experience with it).

Psychic Warrior 15: BAB: +11/+6/+1, STR: 16 other stats irrelevant at this time.
Feats: Weapon Focus: greatsword, psionic weapon, power attack, dodge, speed of thought, mobility, spring attack, deep impact.
Weapon: greatsword +3, to hit: =18/+13/+8
Damage: 2d6+7

Fighter/mage 15(ftr 1/Wiz 6/EK 8): BAB +12/+7/+2 STR: 16 other stats irrelevant at this time.
Feats: Weapon Focus: greatsword, power attack, arcane strike, others not that relevant (gets 7 others I believe).
Weapon greatsword +3, to hit +19/+14/+9
Damage: 2d6+7

Opponent – standard Nalfeshnee Demon (picked out of CR 14 MM monsters (initially did a 14th level comparison))
AC: 27/touch 9 HP:175

Psychic Warrior using deep impact:
Average damage per round: 34.2 (not counting criticals, damage arrived by using full power attack and all three attacks). The psychic warrior can do this, at best, every other round. I’m sure the psychic warrior has some better options than this damage output.

End result: not much other than an angry demon that you are now standing right next to (get around this with a spring attack instead of full attack at minimal cost). Even if the attack came late in the round, the Nalfeshnee is likely still up. I would like to know if there is anything that can add a lot to this combo.

Fighter/mage using wraithstrike.:
Average damage per round (not counting criticals): 81.7, the fighter/mage can do this several consecutive rounds if necessary. That’s almost 2.5 times better than the psychic warrior for the round.

But that’s not the kicker. As I said the true power comes from the “I need to kill this now” potential. If the fighter/mage needs to, he can arcane strike up to a 6th level spell 2 or so times per day (3 if a specialist). This puts average damage up substantially (partially from the increased chance of any given attack hitting): 98.8 from weapon damage and 39 from arcane strike: total average damage: 137.8. I’m not sure the fighter/mage has a better option available (disintegrate, on the off chance the demon fails its save has an average damage of 105 at this level).

End result: One seriously hurt demon. If the psychic warrior (above) attacked 1st the Nalfeshnee is almost dropped.

P.S. this was all done rather fast and I can’t vouch for the math being perfect, but it’s pretty close.

I understand your point. But as I have said (and as your post here demonstrates), once that demon is dead (even if it takes only a round or two to kill), what is your fighter/mage going to do against his mooks or other encounters later in the day?

 

[shilsen]

6 times a day is basically 6 rounds of combat. Hardly game breaking. And again, the kind of character that is using Wraithstrike will also have other spells they'll want to take advantage of as well, so not every 2nd lvl+ slot will be used on Wraithstrike. And then you factor in Arcane Strike and that will also mitigate it's use.

Since you can use higher level spell slots to cast wraithstrike, and doing so will often be better than casting spells of those levels, the character will be able to use it a lot more often.

I understand your point. But as I have said (and as your post here demonstrates), once that demon is dead (even if it takes only a round or two to kill), what is your fighter/mage going to do against his mooks or other encounters later in the day?

See above.

 

[Votan]

Since you can use higher level spell slots to cast wraithstrike, and doing so will often be better than casting spells of those levels, the character will be able to use it a lot more often.

Here is where a Spontaneous caster really outperforms a prepared caster. A Wizard needs to decide to devote these high level slots in advance. A Sorcerer does not but retains the ability to convert spells to Wraithstrike.

Since Arcane Strike remains a free action instead of a Swift action as far as I can tell, then you could mix the two together for some real fun. But this is the beginning of a rather serious investment.

 

[Mort]

6 times a day is basically 6 rounds of combat. Hardly game breaking. And again, the kind of character that is using Wraithstrike will also have other spells they'll want to take advantage of as well, so not every 2nd lvl+ slot will be used on Wraithstrike. And then you factor in Arcane Strike and that will also mitigate it's use.?

6 rounds of extremely high damage potential is not easy to come by for any class. Remember this is only a 2nd level spell, the fighter/mage will have plenty more where that came from, and barring that plenty of escape options.

I understand your point. But as I have said (and as your post here demonstrates), once that demon is dead (even if it takes only a round or two to kill), what is your fighter/mage going to do against his mooks or other encounters later in the day?

You've just taken out the BBEG with one 2nd level spell (and maybe 1 other spell if needed) you've got plenty of ammo left for the mooks and later encounters (though the BBEG is often the last encounter so you probably won't need much more) much more than you would have had without wraithstrike.
Further, since you've taken out the encounter quickly, not only have you saved your own resources, but the cleric probably doesn't have to spend curing resources, the barbarian didn't have to rage, the rogue didn't have to UMD a scroll or a wand, etc. etc. This is likely a large net savings in actual resources.

Resource management is always in issue in 3e, wraithstrike lessens the problem it doesn't make it worse.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

If the target of that Wraithstriking Power Attacking Gish has the Elusive Target feat, then the extra damage from Power Attack doesn't count. Not a complete fix, but it helps.

 

[wildstarsreach]

@Twinned Scorching Ray: If you're Energy-Subbing on the fly, then you're a sorcerer (and you can only Energy Sub to one element anyway, unless you took it multiple times), otherwise you were blindly guessing. The 24d6 is distributed in 6 discrete packages, which means that even Energy Resistance 10 is going to bring your average down from 84 to 24. And even at 84, that's much less than a crazy Wraithstrike Full Attack, and it allows SR.

Wraithstrike (used correctly on a Power Attacking full attack, of course) is clearly superior to both Finger of Death and Disintegrate because it does not allow a Fortitude Save. Take a look at the Fort saves on most critters, and you'll see why, unfortunately.

Agreed.
Let's trick out a 20th level F2/W7/Spllswd1/Eld knt10. Has about a 100-125 HP. BA +16/+11/+6/+1. Str+Magic +9, Misc +3. Arcane Strike 9th lvl spell +9/hit +9d4 dam, Power attack 16/32 with enlarged greatsword. Of Course haste.

+22/+22/+17/+12/+7 to hit, Damage 3d6(10)+12+32+9d4(23)=77 points on average.

385 points a round if all 5 attacks hit. An average of 3 1/2 his gives 269 points a round. Most large to colossal creatures will be hit except on a 1. It is too good in it's current form. The spell needs to be changed or baned. As a player, I want this spell. That doesn't mean I don't recognize that this spell isn't or shouldn't be baned or changed dramtically.