Joss Whedon Allegations: The Undoing of the "Buffy" Creator

[Hex08]

It is not the craft of the work that changed, but the meaning takes on a new light. Stories bear meaning, and learning new information can really change the tenor of a story. Xander has not aged well, for example.

I get that stories bear meaning, I just don't see that the story or meaning has changed. What we know about the creator has changed. It seems to me that people are projecting their feelings about the creator onto the work and the story.

I guess everyone has to come to terms with this stuff in their own way.

 

[Smackpixi]

I feel like what people need to see, for their satisfaction, sense of justice, schadenfreude, amusement, or whatever is the bad actor broken and humbled, and never doing it again. This Eddings guy did some horrific stuff, then wrote some books people liked. Was he properly broken and humbled first? I don’t know.

I think it matters, cause yeah, learning about people you liked and respected who got away with being awful sucks, whether they directed your favorite movie or just bagged your groceries perfectly, doesn’t matter, you feel scammed, fooled, and pissed about it, if I’d only known…

But once busted and shamed, and jailed, or fined or whatever, even bad people need to get on with their life. While I share the immediate impulse that no never can they do the thing they love again, I also, well, maybe, eventually in some capacity think that reformed people should be back contributing to society, to its culture.

This Joss fork doesn’t seem to have any self awareness of his actions, or seems to think he can explain them away still, so, yeah, i’m still on the dogpile side, but should he figure it out, or at least figure out acting the part of a pride broken, maybe there’s time when even people much worse than him can be allowed do use their talents again?

 

[Irlo]

I get that stories bear meaning, I just don't see that the story or meaning has changed. What we know about the creator has changed. It seems to me that people are projecting their feelings about the creator onto the work and the story.

I guess everyone has to come to terms with this stuff in their own way.

Of course they are (projecting). Story and meaning change when we change, and what we know and experience changes us. For some of us, our feelings about the creator of various works strongly influence what we take from those works and what they mean to us. And when the basis of those feeling turns out to be not only wrong but completely contrary to our ideas, that changes how we see the work.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I feel like what people need to see, for their satisfaction, sense of justice, schadenfreude, amusement, or whatever is the bad actor broken and humbled, and never doing it again. This Eddings guy did some horrific stuff, then wrote some books people liked. Was he properly broken and humbled first? I don’t know.

I think it matters, cause yeah, learning about people you liked and respected who got away with being awful sucks, whether they directed your favorite movie or just bagged your groceries perfectly, doesn’t matter, you feel scammed, fooled, and pissed about it, if I’d only known…

But once busted and shamed, and jailed, or fined or whatever, even bad people need to get on with their life. While I share the immediate impulse that no never can they do the thing they love again, I also, well, maybe, eventually in some capacity think that reformed people should be back contributing to society, to its culture.

This Joss fork doesn’t seem to have any self awareness of his actions, or seems to think he can explain them away still, so, yeah, i’m still on the dogpile side, but should he figure it out, or at least figure out acting the part of a pride broken, maybe there’s time when even people much worse than him can be allowed do use their talents again?

I don’t think most people want to see Joss broken or humbled. We just want to end his influence on our culture, or failing that reduce it and lessen his ability to get new things made that will influence the culture.

I don’t expect him to face any punishment. As long as he doesn’t have power, it’s just about not putting my money on things with his name, and doing what I can to contribute to making his reputation as a creator very clear that his name on a project is repellant to a significant portion of potential consumers.

 

[Smackpixi]

Why would you want his influence on culture ended? People like his movies and shows, I’m way less impressed myself, but tastes, whatever. Insofar as people like that, it’s not the thing needing ending. Him being an ashhole needs to be ended. How we go about that, not really concerned about, whatever people that care suggest fine with me.

Buffy’s not the problem. Him being a douche while making it is. End that, then accept another Buffy? People want another Buffy, if it’s in him, let’s get it out after he understands how to treat people. People need to not be ashholes, I’m fine with rejecting them until they aren’t. But once they decide to be decent people…maybe ok to have another Buffy?

 

[S'mon]

Bit of a difference there: Gibson is mentally ill and has substance abuse issues, and he has recurring apologies when he's back on the wagon. And when he is on the wagon, he can apparently be very pleasant to work with.

Whedon is far worse than that, he is a stable jerk.

I think it's pretty clear that Whedon does have a personality disorder that makes him treat women so badly. He's not a good person; he's not a monster like Weinstein or Epstein. A good person might have a personality disorder and dark urges, but would also have some sense of honour/integrity that minimised how much they hurt the people around them. Whedon seems to lack any sense of that.

It's a sad case, given that his disordered personality also seems connected to his creative genius and the stuff people loved about his creations. Obviously I mostly feel sorry for his female victims, and people need to be protected from him. If he makes a living as an anonymous script doctor, that does not bother me at all. But he should not be directing.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

But once busted and shamed, and jailed, or fined or whatever, even bad people need to get on with their life. While I share the immediate impulse that no never can they do the thing they love again, I also, well, maybe, eventually in some capacity think that reformed people should be back contributing to society, to its culture.

I agree that people who have done the punishment assessed them by society need to be reintegrated back into regular society…if they can.

But that doesn’t necessarily mean they’re going to be able to do whatever it was they were doing before. Besides ongoing legal issues that may be a roadblock, there may also be lingering anger from the fanbase. And the fact that others in that field may not wish to associate with that person anymore.

I’m not talking about a lack of forgiveness. I’m talking a lack of trust.

Over the past few years, the poster child (for me) has been Tim Lambesis- founding member and lead vocalist of American metalcore band As I Lay Dying. He was arrested in 2013 after attempting to hire a hitman (actually an undercover police officer) to murder his wife, pled guilty in 2014 and was sentenced to serve six years in prison. Lambesis was released on parole in December 2016.

Supposedly, he and his wife have somewhat reconciled. He was welcomed back into the band. AILD recorded a new album and were slated to do several concert festivals.

….but other artists- some of whom had been friends with Lambesis for years- didnt want to be on a bill with him, and threatened to walk. Some fans also threatened repercussions. Ultimately, AILD was dropped from several lineups.

AILD continues to record & release albums. They still haven’t been welcomed back to all of the tours and festivals they used to play, though.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

I think it's pretty clear that Whedon does have a personality disorder that makes him treat women so badly. He's not a good person; he's not a monster like Weinstein or Epstein. A good person might have a personality disorder and dark urges, but would also have some sense of honour/integrity that minimised how much they hurt the people around them. Whedon seems to lack any sense of that.

While I'd hesitate regarding any kind of clinical diagnosis, honestly, the bombast and dismissiveness of Whedon's latest response paints him as someone who can't even understand how they're supposed to behave - which is even more worrying than someone who pretends to be sorry. It might be a strategic gamble on his part, but if it is, I think it will fail.

It's a sad case, given that his disordered personality also seems connected to his creative genius and the stuff people loved about his creations.

I think people are past excusing assh*le behaviour because of genius, and the received wisdom is now see a counsellor and take your meds.

 

[S'mon]

I think people are past excusing assh*le behaviour because of genius, and the received wisdom is now see a counsellor and take your meds.

I definitely am not in any way excusing his behaviour. I strongly dislike the idea that the auteur should be held to different standards than the rest of us.

 

[S'mon]

Whedon's latest response paints him as someone who can't even understand how they're supposed to behave

I share your impression.