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Just How Immersive Can You Get?

There are many works of fiction that D&D draws upon for inspiration, as co-creator Gary Gygax made clear with his Appendix N in the Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Dungeon Master's Guide. Jon Peterson identified a theme that some of the Appendix N fiction has in common, known as a "visitation theme." It serves as a useful template for how D&D is portrayed -- now and in the future. By...

There are many works of fiction that D&D draws upon for inspiration, as co-creator Gary Gygax made clear with his Appendix N in the Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Dungeon Master's Guide. Jon Peterson identified a theme that some of the Appendix N fiction has in common, known as a "visitation theme." It serves as a useful template for how D&D is portrayed -- now and in the future.

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By Connecticut_Yankee4.jpg: Daniel Carter Beard(1850–1941)

The First Level: Playing Yourself

The visitation theme in fiction is summed up by Jon Peterson in Playing at the World:

There is however a trajectory in fantasy literature running through Burroughs, de Camp and Anderson, which also surfaces in the works of Moorcock and Howard, that demonstrates precisely this sort of connection between fantasy and the denizens of the "real" modern world...The formula is a simple one: plausible contemporary persons undertake a journey to an undiscovered, fantastic realm, where after some adventures they return to their place of origin.

The theme is common with child protagonists, who are more open to fantastic worlds through their imagination, traversing gateways to other realms; Alice in Wonderland, The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, and The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe being three popular examples. In the hands of an adult -- who brings a developed skill set with them -- things can take quite a different turn. One of the best examples of this idea is Mark Twain's A Connecticut Yankee at King Arthur's Court:

Morgan applies nineteenth-century engineering know-how to the raw materials of the period, and his accomplishments quickly outstrip those of deranged mystics like Merlin, to say nothing of the martial prowess of the knights themselves. Eventually, in the final confrontation between American ingenuity and English hereditary privilege, Morgan handily butchers the flower of British nobility with dynamite, Gatling guns and electric fences.

A more recent example of this idea in film is Ash Williams in Army of Darkness: a modern time traveler who is thrust into a fantasy world, and uses his modern know-how to his advantage.

Role-playing's unique application of real life concepts (codified monsters and magic, rules for spells, characters neatly divided into races and classes) finds a useful parallel in this fiction theme, where D&D transports its players into a fantasy world for a few hours. It is a halfway between fully immersive role-playing and modern sensibilities -- players are not expected to literally think and act like their characters. In fact, co-creator of D&D's Dave Arneson's first Blackmoor campaign featured the characters playing themselves, as per David Hartlage:

Dave Arneson’s Blackmoor game—the campaign that spawned D&D—began with a gaming group playing fictional versions of themselves in a fantasy world. The characters became champions in series of miniature battles featuring armies clashing above ground. Without any further inspiration, the Blackmoor game might have evolved into a role-playing game such as Chivalry & Sorcery, a game I found short on fun. But somehow, Dave invented a new activity that transformed the campaign and ultimately made a lasting addition to popular culture.

Escape rooms adopt this form of "light" role-play in which the player is expected to be herself, but still bring her know-how to a fictional challenge in order to escape.

There are plenty of reasons why this idea might not appeal to players, of course, not the least of which being that a realistic depiction of a player may not be physically capable of handling the challenges of a fictional universe. For game purposes, it can be more fun to adopt a persona that merges the player's mind with a character's body.

The Second Level: Playing a Hero
If Twain's take on proto-role-playing is a bit jarring to modern audiences, Edgar Rice Burrough's Barsoom series (featuring John Carter) and The Compleat Enchanter stories (featuring Harold Shea) by Fletcher Pratt and L. Sprague de Camp provides a template that's more familiar to gamers:

Intriguingly, the stories of John Carter and Harold Shea are prominently mentioned by Gygax in the foreword to Dungeons & Dragons as inspirations for the game--together they constitute two out of the four fictions that he expects Dungeons & Dragons to emulate...There is a certain intrinsic kindship between these stories of twentieth-century persons visiting fantasy worlds and the play of Dungeons & Dragons, where we as players set aside our mundane selves temporarily to assume a fantastic role.

In both series, the protagonists are not merely transported to new realms but transformed. Harold Shea discovers he speaks Old Norse, cannot read English, and the world's core physics prevent him from using his modern sensibilities like lighting a match. Similarly, John Carter has great strength and superhuman agility thanks to Mars' lesser gravity and lower atmospheric pressure. The heroes still have their own minds, but they are in different bodies.

Perhaps the most influential of these types of visitation themes is Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions. Holger Carlson, an American-trained Danish engineer, finds himself in a fantasy realm where his newfound armor fits him perfectly, he knows how to use his weapons and ride a horse, and he can speak the local language. Three Hearts and Three Lions gave us D&D's paladin, complete with "laying on hands" and regenerating trolls. Even R.E. Howard's Conan -- another highly influential character on D&D -- was not immune to visitation fiction, in which John O'Brien relives his past life as Conan in "People of the Dark."

This version of visitation fiction is slightly more immersive than the first, and is used to good effect in the Dungeons & Dragons cartoon. Our six young heroes are thrust into competent bodies who have equipment that fits them perfectly and (mostly) know how to use them. This is a parallel for D&D itself, which asks players to invest partially in their fantasy character tropes without fully immersing themselves in it: they didn't have to become a fantasy character, they just play one.

Villains & Vigilantes is one of the first superhero role-playing games to formalize this level of immersion, in which a player was the real-life secret identity to the superhero she played in the game. This mimics cosplay as well, in which players adopt a persona of a hero or villain in appearance only. For full-immersion that blurs the line between player and character, we must dive into the third level.

The Third Level: Becoming the Character

Thinking and acting like your character is not unique to Dungeons & Dragons, but it requires a level of commitment above and beyond the first two levels of immersion.

This form of role-play has become increasingly popular with role-play only servers in massive multi-player online role-playing games (MMORPGs), where most game play is firmly stuck in level two -- players usually talk about real life through their characters without any clear distinction between them. Part of this is certainly due to the medium, where a player is using a computer to connect with his character and thus can only engage with the game at the second level of engagement.

Conversely, Live Action Role-Playing (LARPs) works actively to not use the first level of engagement (like cosplay, an easy mode to slip into since the player is physically part of the game). Many LARPs emphasize level three only. Full immersion at this level can create "bleed" in which the emotions of characters affect players.

Pitching D&D

There's a reason why visitation fiction is popular, and it has its parallels in D&D itself. As Peterson states:

...we need only appreciate that the prevalence of the visitation theme is one of the dominant factors that ensured role-playing games began in a fantasy setting, rather than some other genre. These stories taught reads how to role-play when immersed in a fantasy narrative: how to follow the example of a Connecticut Yankee, of Harold Shea, or Holger Carlson. The immense popularity of Tolkien seeded a global marketplace for fantasy that was cleverly exploited by both Chainmail and Dungeons & Dragons, both of which transcended the popular distaste for warfare by setting their action at a great remove from modern weaponry and casting their battles in a world of moral absolutes, among evil beasts that can be slain without qualms.

This technique, which eased readers into fantasy, also eases gamers into role-playing. Visitation fiction lets you dive right in: While there are certainly peculiarities of any fantasy visit, modern players don't have to worry too much if they know how to swing a sword, or ride a horse, or speak the local language. If the upcoming D&D film is to distinguish itself from other fantasy movies, the visitation theme might make the difference.
 

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Michael Tresca

Michael Tresca

I think What's New has covered immersion quite well enough, way back in the 80s. The panel with the phone books is most important. :) WNwP&D use to be available online but now I can only find them via archive.org.

https://web.archive.org/web/2015042...ntertainment.com/growfcomic.php?date=20070506
https://web.archive.org/web/2015042...ntertainment.com/growfcomic.php?date=20070513

Have to agree with whoever said they dislike Portal Fiction. If I got sent through a portal to a D&D world, I don't live very long. No medications, no useful pre-computer skills, overweight. Feh. Yeah, my knowledge of science is like magic: except it's all theoretical. How to actually harvest and process the ingredients for gunpowder? No clue.

If I ever ran such a game, I'd have the players create a modern character who would be sent through the portal (and this would not be a surprise I'd tell them the portal is coming).
 

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Nytmare

David Jose
I should have been clearer – do they make reference to being in the world of the D&D game? Or is it just the Realm (what I recall it being referred to).

I had always been told that the TV show didn't reference the game, but either the comics, or the old D&D choose your own adventure stories made mention of D&D being a game back in the real world.

Has anyone here read any of them?
 

David Weihe

Villager
How to actually harvest and process the ingredients for gunpowder? No clue.

Saltpeter is found in crystals at the bottom of dung piles. Charcoal, easiest thing is to ask a smith, as they use it on the forge. Sulfur is either sold as the yellow power, or I do not know how to get it, either, at least in sufficient quantities. Unfortunately, it has been so long since I last read Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen that I have forgotten the ratios. Enough saltpeter is apparently the limiting factor, though.

Of course, the trick then is to get good enough iron or steel that your gun barrel doesn't blow up in your face. Without crucible steel, it is too dangerous for me :)

You want something tricky, try to make china. It took Dresden three generations of work to get the china, a decent clear glaze, and decent colored glazes, at least according to The Arcanum, a book on tape to which I listened, back in the early 2000s. It started out with an alchemist making porcelain as an alternate goal to producing gold, so it sort of fits in a Renaissance Era D&D type game.

The other trick is to have enough languages to make yourself understood. Supposed you portal to the in-world equivalent of the Duchy of Burgundy, where they spoke Dutch, Frisian, French, Low German, Danish, and English if in the wool trade, Spanish if dealing with the Charles V, HRE and King of Spain (and Duke of B), or his government, Latin to talk to the intelligencia, and Hebrew and Greek for really intelligent conversations with the local preacher :). We poor monolingual Americans cannot understand how difficult it can be :) This is why I like the TARDIS, as it just does this for anyone the Doctor or Companion(s) talks to.
 

Yes, yes, yes, I know the theory behind getting the components to gunpowder. But how do you harvest those crystals? How do you know the sulfur is pure enough? What are the ratios? "Hey, guys, I can't speak your language but I can tell you just enough about this stuff to blow yourself up with it."

Yeah, even knowing a several modern languages doesn't help with the older version of them. And I can imagine a village priest being utterly confused by my poor Latin skills.
 

Panda-s1

Scruffy and Determined
Yes, yes, yes, I know the theory behind getting the components to gunpowder. But how do you harvest those crystals? How do you know the sulfur is pure enough? What are the ratios? "Hey, guys, I can't speak your language but I can tell you just enough about this stuff to blow yourself up with it."

Yeah, even knowing a several modern languages doesn't help with the older version of them. And I can imagine a village priest being utterly confused by my poor Latin skills.

if we accept that alchemy is a thing in D&D then creating gunpowder isn't a huge stretch of the imagination. don't forget that people irl discovered gunpowder and found good ways to make it ;)

like David said the real trick is finding out how to use gunpowder without hurting yourself. historically it seems grenades were a popular idea until guns got better.
 

ArchfiendBobbie

First Post
Yes, yes, yes, I know the theory behind getting the components to gunpowder. But how do you harvest those crystals? How do you know the sulfur is pure enough? What are the ratios? "Hey, guys, I can't speak your language but I can tell you just enough about this stuff to blow yourself up with it."

Yeah, even knowing a several modern languages doesn't help with the older version of them. And I can imagine a village priest being utterly confused by my poor Latin skills.

One thing to keep in mind is that gunpowder predates full plate by hundreds of years, and one of the early uses is in rocket launchers. In Europe, pistols and longarms both predate full plate by a minimum of one hundred years, and cannons were a common siege weapon by the time full plate was invented. The French, for example, liked to direct cannon fire at English knights. You can see museum exhibits of full plate armor with holes where cannonballs passed through.

If you want other uses beyond rocket launchers and guns, keep in mind the Chinese have records of people using gunpowder to form primitive land mines, sea mines were a traditional Chinese usage of gunpowder, grenades in the form of sacks or metal spheres filled with gunpowder existed for quite some time... Basically, by the time full plate came around so had many elements of modern warfare.

So, in a DnD-style world with alchemy, developing gunpowder should be incredibly easy. Even easier to add it to golems and such, incorporating cannons as arms to give them advantages over knights in full plate. Pathfinder, aside from the terrible idea to have firearms hit touch AC and the resulting insane price balancing, treats this rather well and can serve as a basis for developing a magical world that includes some of the technology that led up to the development of full plate.

Ironically, this means that the Civilization series gets the order wrong on when gunpowder is developed ;)
 

The point is not gunpowder, per se. It is not being killed outright because you are completely useless. I also know nothing about being a farmhand, handling cattle, domestic work? I barely function in a modern kitchen, what could I possibly do with a pot hanging over a fire in a hearth? Soldiering? I would lack the killer instinct of the commoner of the times. Probably the only chance I have of making a living is singing Beatles songs for coin. (and sorry world, if this is past earth, I've just destroyed their career. :) )

The modern person knows more science than anyone living at the time. But most of it only theoretical. Einstein's theories on gravity will do me little good in 1203 CE. Knowledge of germs and sanitation is worth its weight in gold. (Note: germs don't weigh much.) But who's going to listen to the crazy man with the weird accent and odd turn of phrase when he's talking about animals so small you can't see them. Preposterous!
 

Thats right!

The Forgotten Realms comic broke the 4th wall with a “behind the scenes” issue late in its run with #24 – Everybody Wants to Run the Realms:

http://www.aherotwiceamonth.com/2013/01/forgotten-realms-issue-24-everyone.html


I had always been told that the TV show didn't reference the game, but either the comics, or the old D&D choose your own adventure stories made mention of D&D being a game back in the real world.

Has anyone here read any of them?
 

ArchfiendBobbie

First Post
The point is not gunpowder, per se. It is not being killed outright because you are completely useless. I also know nothing about being a farmhand, handling cattle, domestic work? I barely function in a modern kitchen, what could I possibly do with a pot hanging over a fire in a hearth? Soldiering? I would lack the killer instinct of the commoner of the times. Probably the only chance I have of making a living is singing Beatles songs for coin. (and sorry world, if this is past earth, I've just destroyed their career. :) )

The modern person knows more science than anyone living at the time. But most of it only theoretical. Einstein's theories on gravity will do me little good in 1203 CE. Knowledge of germs and sanitation is worth its weight in gold. (Note: germs don't weigh much.) But who's going to listen to the crazy man with the weird accent and odd turn of phrase when he's talking about animals so small you can't see them. Preposterous!

Actually, knowledge of germs is close to worthless in 1203 CE Europe. You don't have any way of proving it without technology that will be invented later, and medicine is too primitive to benefit; there's not enough surgery going on for germ theory to be a relevant medical advance yet. It doesn't even help on the personal care front, as bathing was common up until the Black Plague; it was because bath houses became death traps that Europe came to have the hygiene problems it's so famously associated with. If it wasn't for their technological limits on plumbing, quite possibly the hygiene issues would never have developed and germ theory may have had a lessened impact on modern medicine.

So, I guess you proved your point. You don't even know what would be useful information to take back to guarantee your survival :p

The discoveries they would benefit the most from, and which they could actually use, are plumbing and electricity. Either one is easy enough to explain in a manner that won't get you tried as a witch, and both use knowledge that has actually been around for centuries; the basics of modern plumbing existed back in Ancient Greece (and were incorporated, to a degree, in Greek Fire) and electricity in Ancient Babylon. Modern plumbing was only not figured out because of a lack of materials knowledge, and electricity was only proven because one man took a suggestion to go fly a kite literally.
 

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