Katana wielding
John Q. Mayhem
Explorer
barsoomcore said:
Yeah, it did. And there was a lot of tension, except in the fighting scenes. I liked the movie, but it irked me a bit that Preston was so...invincible. I mean, he's fighting (in the katana scene) about 6 equivalently trained Clerics, and then he utterly demolishes the guy that previously fought him to a standstill. Does he ever get even a little bit hurt, ever? The gun-fight with him and Father was really cool, though. My favorite fight in that movie was the one with him and the other intuitive Cleric with wooden swords.
robberbaron
First Post
barsoomcore said:
Sounds very similar to the iaijutso duel at the end of Kurosawa's 'Sanjuro', except that Toshiro Mifune draws his katana backhand left-handed, with his right hand assisting on the back of the blade.
Sounds like the technique is good for a quickdraw but may not work in a "swordfight" situation.
John Q. Mayhem said:
Totally off-topic, but I understood that part of the movie completely differently. When Preston fought the other Cleric the first time, note that it took him only seconds to parry a quick strike and hit the other guy on the side of the head almost instantly (the same thing he did at the end). Then he drew out the sparring, basically defending himself but not outright beating the other Cleric, and led the other Cleric to spill his guts about the current investigation. After the fight, Preston wasn't even sweating, but the other guy was panting and ready for a rest. I thought it was very rogueish and appropriate.
Preston being so superior to everybody else was a little bit much, but it's something that I chalk up to "well, we're watching a movie about somebody who accomplishes something, not the guy who wasn't good enough and failed."
I would definitely defer to Barsoomcore's experience. 14 years studying Iaido or so is a good chunk of time.
A couple of things I might add to the general discussion:
I wouldn't suggest that your thumb always rests on the edge of the grip. It is just as likely to wrap around the grip for added strength. Believe it or not, your LAST 2 fingers (ring and pinky) provide more gripping strength than your index and middle. They apply the counter pressure in the same way some people suggest using the thumb.
Though many would discredit the show, the Highlander TV series makes common use of this grip. The main character (you know who, who isn't the you know who from the movie of the same name) often uses this grip, both to conceal the weapon to some extent (smaller profile) as well as to block and decapitate.
For effectiveness, this technique would make a smaller profile when walking around, making it slightly less threatening that you're walking around with a sword. For defense, this is a common grip for other weapons such as Sais, as it effectively reinforces a forearm block (and extends it). On the same note, an elbow strike attack, with the blade held in such a manner, MIGHT be effective (and this is how the aforementioned show does many head-loppings).
A friend of mine is a big fan of the show and he used to go on and on about how cool this grip looked. I've recently seen the show (my wife is now a fan..) and now I know what he's talking about and can relate it to actual sword use. For game description purposes, my 3 uses above may be sufficient for artsy flavor text, otherwise, I'd pay it no mind.
For real power and snap, I'd suggest the 2 handed approach. The top hand (near the Tsuba and blade) guides the sword, the bottom hand snaps the blade as you're striking (by pulling the bottom hand towards you). Go read Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson for some flavor text on this.
Janx
A couple of things I might add to the general discussion:
I wouldn't suggest that your thumb always rests on the edge of the grip. It is just as likely to wrap around the grip for added strength. Believe it or not, your LAST 2 fingers (ring and pinky) provide more gripping strength than your index and middle. They apply the counter pressure in the same way some people suggest using the thumb.
Though many would discredit the show, the Highlander TV series makes common use of this grip. The main character (you know who, who isn't the you know who from the movie of the same name) often uses this grip, both to conceal the weapon to some extent (smaller profile) as well as to block and decapitate.
For effectiveness, this technique would make a smaller profile when walking around, making it slightly less threatening that you're walking around with a sword. For defense, this is a common grip for other weapons such as Sais, as it effectively reinforces a forearm block (and extends it). On the same note, an elbow strike attack, with the blade held in such a manner, MIGHT be effective (and this is how the aforementioned show does many head-loppings).
A friend of mine is a big fan of the show and he used to go on and on about how cool this grip looked. I've recently seen the show (my wife is now a fan..) and now I know what he's talking about and can relate it to actual sword use. For game description purposes, my 3 uses above may be sufficient for artsy flavor text, otherwise, I'd pay it no mind.
For real power and snap, I'd suggest the 2 handed approach. The top hand (near the Tsuba and blade) guides the sword, the bottom hand snaps the blade as you're striking (by pulling the bottom hand towards you). Go read Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson for some flavor text on this.
Janx
John Q. Mayhem
Explorer
Janx said:
A grip I've noticed works well with sticks (don't laugh) is to hold a polearm/long-hilted weapon (I have an excellent imagination) with the right hand held as per the grip I described, and the left holding the other end of the hilt. With a long weapon/stick you can fairly easily keep a guy away from you, and the two-handed holding lets you move FAST. I've only used sticks for fighting (Stop laughing! I have no money for instruction or swords!), does this work?
The_Gneech
Explorer
John Q. Mayhem said:
As a student of Shaolin Kung Fu, I feel I should mention here that the stick is a noble and devastating weapon in the right hands. A long, flexible stick, even more so!
-The Gneech
barsoomcore
Unattainable Ideal
Ah, sword talk. It warms my heart.
Which would incommode most swordsmen significantly.
That doesn't change the fact that I've never seen such a grip used by any actual Japanese swordsman, ever.
Authenticity -- nearly zero
Coolness -- non-zero
Brag Note: In Japan I studied Katori Shinto Ryu under Sensei Sugino Yoshio -- whose name appears in the credits of The Seven Samurai as "swordplay instructor" (it's even translated in the subtitles -- AND listed in IMDB). He was Toshiro Mifune's swordsmanship instructor and Mifune had used to come to the dojo where I studied quite regularly. He was very ill towards the end of his life, sadly and did not come any more, but he and Sensei Sugino remained good friends. Sensei Sugino has since passed away as well and now his son runs the dojo. I was very fortunate indeed to study under such a master.
And yes, that duel at the end of Sanjuro is brilliant. The form described by Darrell Craig is quite different, however. It starts from seiza (Japanese kneeling posture), with the enemy directly behind you. You draw the sword upside-down (blade down) with the right hand, move the point of the sword (pointing straight at you) across your body and stab backwards on your right side, then spin 180 degrees clockwise, lifting the right hand to the right shoulder as you do so that the tip of the blade rises (blade up, now) and intersects the enemy's wrist as his cut descends.
A snazzy flip of the sword (to a traditional grip) and you finish him off with a solid straight cut to the body.
See if some ASCII art can help out (these are overhead views):
That's probably not very helpful, but it was fun to do.
I suspect the "reverse grip" comes from people watching the tonfa or police baton being used and saying to themselves "Why not do that with a sword?" There's some pretty sound physics principles that suggest why not, but when you're making a movie those aren't all that important, really, so why not?
So the usage is almost certainly bad in actual swordfights. If it were an effective technique with a katana, I think I would have seen it used. I can come up with a number of reasons why it's bad -- it becomes very easy to knock your sword out of your hand, it reduces your reach, it reduces the strength of your blows (or your blocks), and it interferes with ki projection. None of which are reasons why it doesn't look cool in movies because I think it totally does.
Probably more information than anyone else wanted. When it comes to sword talk I can get a little over-excited.
Indeed, you are correct. I am aware of no forms that do not use a grip in which the thumb wraps around. The spine of the weapon should pass directly down the center of the separation between thumb and forefinger (right where that little bit of webbing sits).Janx said:
Again, correctamundo. Let us further note that if one were using the thumb as a sort of lever to brace the blade, one's thumb would almost certainly snap the first time a 200-pound angry person walloped their blade against yours.Janx said:
Which would incommode most swordsmen significantly.
While not a fan of the show, I don't consider it any more heinous than most representations of katana fighting. The sword master was the legendary Bob Anderson, who knows more about sword fighting than I do, I'm pretty sure.Janx said:
That doesn't change the fact that I've never seen such a grip used by any actual Japanese swordsman, ever.
Authenticity -- nearly zero
Coolness -- non-zero
Right you are. Your flexible Chinese sticks are quite scary. Though I find the inflexible Japanese sticks (the bo and the jo) more my style. John Q. Mayhem, you ought to feel no shame in studying with sticks. I do it myself on a regular basis.The_Gneech said:
Mm. Kurosawa's sword work is always very, very good. There's a spectacular spear fight in The Hidden Fortress and of course The Seven Samurai is full of all kinds of good stuff.robberbaron said:
Brag Note: In Japan I studied Katori Shinto Ryu under Sensei Sugino Yoshio -- whose name appears in the credits of The Seven Samurai as "swordplay instructor" (it's even translated in the subtitles -- AND listed in IMDB). He was Toshiro Mifune's swordsmanship instructor and Mifune had used to come to the dojo where I studied quite regularly. He was very ill towards the end of his life, sadly and did not come any more, but he and Sensei Sugino remained good friends. Sensei Sugino has since passed away as well and now his son runs the dojo. I was very fortunate indeed to study under such a master.
And yes, that duel at the end of Sanjuro is brilliant. The form described by Darrell Craig is quite different, however. It starts from seiza (Japanese kneeling posture), with the enemy directly behind you. You draw the sword upside-down (blade down) with the right hand, move the point of the sword (pointing straight at you) across your body and stab backwards on your right side, then spin 180 degrees clockwise, lifting the right hand to the right shoulder as you do so that the tip of the blade rises (blade up, now) and intersects the enemy's wrist as his cut descends.
A snazzy flip of the sword (to a traditional grip) and you finish him off with a solid straight cut to the body.
See if some ASCII art can help out (these are overhead views):
Code:
START
,
(-|0 -) (you (that's your sword sticking out of your belt on the left))
,
(-|0 -) (bad guy)
STEP ONE: DRAW (reverse grip)
|,
(-|0 -) (your right hand across your body, palm facing left, pulling the hilt forward)
,
(- 0 -) (he has drawn his sword and now holds it over his head, ready to strike)
|
|
STEP TWO: THRUST (reverse grip)
,
(- 0 -) (the sword crosses your body in front and thrust backward)
|
, |
(- 0 -) (he leans back to avoid the thrust, unable to cut)
|
|
STEP THREE: SPIN (reverse grip)
(-|0 -) (now facing him, right hand up by right shoulder, cut his wrist as he cuts)
|',
(- 0 -) (your point has pulled back so he cuts, catching his wrist on your point)
|
STEP FOUR: CUT (normal grip)
(- 0 -) ( flip the sword around (hard to describe) and he's toast)
|'
(-|0 -)I suspect the "reverse grip" comes from people watching the tonfa or police baton being used and saying to themselves "Why not do that with a sword?" There's some pretty sound physics principles that suggest why not, but when you're making a movie those aren't all that important, really, so why not?
So the usage is almost certainly bad in actual swordfights. If it were an effective technique with a katana, I think I would have seen it used. I can come up with a number of reasons why it's bad -- it becomes very easy to knock your sword out of your hand, it reduces your reach, it reduces the strength of your blows (or your blocks), and it interferes with ki projection. None of which are reasons why it doesn't look cool in movies because I think it totally does.
Probably more information than anyone else wanted. When it comes to sword talk I can get a little over-excited.
I haven't seen it used in any traditional katana style, but then, I don't know many traditional katana styles that were meant to work against unarmored opponents with semiautomatic handguns. The movie folks pretty much fell into katana envy, even though the style that people were using was not always best actualized with a katana.
While I actively disliked much of Equilibrium, I did like the stick-duel, the end-fight with Diggs (which had me laughing out loud at the sheer unexpectednes of it), and the end-fight with Father. Most of the rest, action scenes included, I could take or leave. The basic premise of "systematic series of movements based on math that lets you walk through a gunfight without getting hit" is beautiful, but in practice, it involved some fairly stupid stance-work while remaining in one place, which is not exactly a recipe for not getting hit by bullets.
"You can't shoot me now! I'm slightly bent over with one leg fully extended!"
Back to topic: As somebody who has no formal katana training, but who does have training along the lines of "Here, as part of your test, we're going to have you hold random weapons and defend yourself with them, using your existing martial arts skills with unfamiliar equipment", I would only intentionally use the katana in that grip if I were intent, for some reason, on moving in close without first being able to slash the opponent, or if I were intent on disabling my attacker without killing him -- or possibly if I, for some reason, had to block rather than evading or parrying, and was fighting someone with something heavy and needed that forearm-brace stuff. The forearm-brace isn't usually worth the loss of parrying (what the katana was designed for, defensively, instead of blocking), the loss of reach, the limitation of offensive movements (you can do a low-ish inverted stabbie deal, or you can do a forward-smashing elbow that has the sword braced against it, and really, s'about it), and the (as I remember) slower movements you're restricted to, since you're using different muscles to move it.
"Looking cool" is about the best real reason to hold it that way -- but I will flat-out admit that, in the movies, that's as good a reason as any. Fights that are straightforward and utterly efficient can look good to those who know their stuff, but they can also be deathly dull at times -- and will almost always look dull to people who don't know the system. I'd take the swashbuckling of "Pirates of the Carribean" (whose stars were not legendary swordsmen) over a Steven Seagal movie any day, and I know that Seagal is, whatever other character traits you might stick on him, a well-respected Aikido practitioner.
EDIT: PS: Barsoomcore, you rock.
While I actively disliked much of Equilibrium, I did like the stick-duel, the end-fight with Diggs (which had me laughing out loud at the sheer unexpectednes of it), and the end-fight with Father. Most of the rest, action scenes included, I could take or leave. The basic premise of "systematic series of movements based on math that lets you walk through a gunfight without getting hit" is beautiful, but in practice, it involved some fairly stupid stance-work while remaining in one place, which is not exactly a recipe for not getting hit by bullets.
"You can't shoot me now! I'm slightly bent over with one leg fully extended!"
Back to topic: As somebody who has no formal katana training, but who does have training along the lines of "Here, as part of your test, we're going to have you hold random weapons and defend yourself with them, using your existing martial arts skills with unfamiliar equipment", I would only intentionally use the katana in that grip if I were intent, for some reason, on moving in close without first being able to slash the opponent, or if I were intent on disabling my attacker without killing him -- or possibly if I, for some reason, had to block rather than evading or parrying, and was fighting someone with something heavy and needed that forearm-brace stuff. The forearm-brace isn't usually worth the loss of parrying (what the katana was designed for, defensively, instead of blocking), the loss of reach, the limitation of offensive movements (you can do a low-ish inverted stabbie deal, or you can do a forward-smashing elbow that has the sword braced against it, and really, s'about it), and the (as I remember) slower movements you're restricted to, since you're using different muscles to move it.
"Looking cool" is about the best real reason to hold it that way -- but I will flat-out admit that, in the movies, that's as good a reason as any. Fights that are straightforward and utterly efficient can look good to those who know their stuff, but they can also be deathly dull at times -- and will almost always look dull to people who don't know the system. I'd take the swashbuckling of "Pirates of the Carribean" (whose stars were not legendary swordsmen) over a Steven Seagal movie any day, and I know that Seagal is, whatever other character traits you might stick on him, a well-respected Aikido practitioner.
EDIT: PS: Barsoomcore, you rock.
Last edited:
barsoomcore
Unattainable Ideal
That's a very, very sound point. Neither do I. I mean other than the Hide Behind Brick Wall And Hope He Comes Around Corner Without Checking Form.takyris said:
My ASCII-fu is strong. Fear me.takyris said:
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