Katana wielding

[Janx]

Actually, as I recall, Segal only has an Honorary Black Belt. According to my Akido Wimp friends, he only knows 2 moves or so.

For stick boy (JohnQ?), there's nothing wrong with some stick fighting. According to legend, the swordmaster whats-his-name-who-wrote-the-book-of-five-rings (miyamoto, the name comes to me finally) himself was brought to a draw by the guy who developed Jo stick style fighting. And Miyamoto eventually quit using real swords and started using stick swords, just because he didn't need a sword to kick butt anymore (yes, he was that good, 60 wins kind of good). Note, losing back then meant being dead, so 60 is impressive. And the fact that retired to a cave to write a book says a lot.

Anyway, for Jo stuff, learn to hold the stick with both hands gripping the stick, thumbs facing each other. Hold the stick with both hands near the the top end, hands at your right side, stick pointing back, as if you were about to draw a sword. A good Jo guy can snap that sucker out, slide it back to his left, whack you again, slide it into a wide grip, block, trap your sword and squish your fingers between his weapon and yours. Cool stuff. It's all mostly about learning to change your grip and smoothly sliding your hands up and down the stick as you change postures.

Then you can get into the short sticks, escrima. They can be fun too. And they look like a stick for your dog to chase, and they hide behind your leg pretty good (the stick, not the dog).

Weapons, gotta love em.

Janx

 

[barsoomcore]

There's an interesting clip of martial arts legend Donn Draegar demonstrating Shindo Muso Ryu jodo here:

Click Me!

The jo is an especially interesting weapon. I've wanted for some time to build a set of feats around its usage, just to mimic some of the fun stuff you can do with it -- grapple people, trip, catch weapons, reverse attacks and all sorts of fun stuff.

Much more detailed info (written by the great Dave Lowry) is here.

 

[Wolffenjugend]

Is the original question like how you see expert knife wielders (i.e. commandos in the movies) holding knives with the blade held back against the wrist as opposed to holding the blade out in front of you?

If so, then a martial arts expert I talked to said it's b/c it's harder to be disarmed or have your own weapon used against you. When you hold the blade out in front of you, a well-placed kick can disarm you whereas it's much harder to do the same when the blade isn't so exposed.

 

[takyris]

Well, if we're talking about knife with point-down, rather than up, there are some reasons. At the higher levels, Kenpo does some stuff that looks a lot like escrima (that is, escrima people say, "Hey, you're doing escrima now!", and we say, "No, this is all Kenpo," and eventually we agree that all martial arts are one martial art and go have a Jamba Juice) and we teach about a quarter of the techniques both point-up and point-down (ie, you do the same movements but with the knife in a different position). Point-up, you might be stabbing the guy and slashing up his arm, while point-down, you're hilt-punching him and slashing across his arm instead of up it. And so forth. Doing the techniques both ways teaches a bunch of different strike points, and some techniques are taught with one knife up and one knife down -- ie, step back and parry away and attack with the point-up knife, then step in and do a long slash up their body with the point-down knife, and then stab so that both knives hit the person (that's "Thrusting Lance" in a nutshell).

Oh, and sticks rock. You can't carry a katana with you in the park most of the time, but nobody worries much about the guy pantomiming drumming in the air with a pair of sticks the length of his forearm. Even longer sticks (the 26"-ish guys) are a lot easier to explain than a katana. And, really, while I'm unlikely to ever have my katana on me when attacked by bad guys, I might have a stick or two within arm's reach -- or an umbrella, or a broken broom handle, or a small crowbar, or a rolled-up newspaper, or a cell phone I was tired of anyway...

Janx: Really? I was sure that, while he seems sort of sleazy as an actor, he was a really well-respected Aikido practitioner whose moves got turned into mush onscreen because of Hollywood cinematography constraints. But I figure you know better than I do -- I know that I don't know, at least.

 

[jerichothebard]

Actually, as I recall, Segal only has an Honorary Black Belt. According to my Akido Wimp friends, he only knows 2 moves or so

Not even vaguely true. He is in fact quite skilled, and has his own dojo in the LA area. He is discussed with a little (ok, a lot) of scorn within the community, but I believe that has more to do with the fact that his movies embody the antithesis of the Aikido spirit, and not a lack of actual skill on his part.

 

[nimisgod]

Oh, and sticks rock. You can't carry a katana with you in the park most of the time, but nobody worries much about the guy pantomiming drumming in the air with a pair of sticks the length of his forearm. Even longer sticks (the 26"-ish guys) are a lot easier to explain than a katana. And, really, while I'm unlikely to ever have my katana on me when attacked by bad guys, I might have a stick or two within arm's reach -- or an umbrella, or a broken broom handle, or a small crowbar, or a rolled-up newspaper, or a cell phone I was tired of anyway...

I actually took up some Arnis (Filipino Stick Fighting) and I've been taught to use some of the stick fighting forms/maneuvers with knives, ballpens and even unarmed. Of course, I can only say that about the Doce Pares school, since there it has assimulated some Aikido-esque moves. And there are 11 other schools of Arnis, too.

I think the fighting sticks are illegal though, cuz police view it (correctly) as a lethal weapon. Two of this fighting batons/sticks I have are heavy (some 2-3 lbs or so, a little more than a short sword in weight) and when swung, can break knees, elbows and necks with ease. Even my lighter sticks can be lethal... or at least, stunning. Getting bopped on the head (esp. the temples) is sure to cause a little disorientation.

 

[jerichothebard]

Ah, sword talk. It warms my heart.

Indeed, you are correct. I am aware of no forms that do not use a grip in which the thumb wraps around. The spine of the weapon should pass directly down the center of the separation between thumb and forefinger (right where that little bit of webbing sits).

In the case of slashing swords and/or Asian martial arts, I think that is true. However, having done a fair amount of fencing in college, I can attest that the foil and epee, and therefore by extension the rapier, all use a thumb-aligned grip. Middle and index fingers hold the sword, while pinky and ring finger provide point control.

At least, in the case of standard hilts, that is. There are some very strange hilts out there, which look like what would happen if you took some soft dough, squeezed it in your hand really hard, and then molded that shape out of 440 steel.

 

[barsoomcore]

Steven Seagal is a 7th-degree black belt in Aikikai Aikido. He runs dojos both in LA and in Japan. There's no question that he is a serious martial artist.

All those comments on knives and sticks are spot on, but I feel compelled to point out that in Canada (and I suspect in the USA, as well), large bladed weapons are perfectly legal to carry around. When I brought my katana back from Japan the Canadian customs agent told me they didn't care about the big blades -- it's only blades under 9 inches you can't carry around concealed.

On the other hand, you might get away with hitting somebody with a stick. With a sword, maybe not so much, even in self-defence.

I have very often practiced with my katana in the park near my house and never once been bothered by anyone.

But then, I suppose many people wouldn't bother the six-foot-three guy waving a sword around.

 

[barsoomcore]

I can attest that the foil and epee, and therefore by extension the rapier, all use a thumb-aligned grip.

Oh yes. I was talking strictly about the katana. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

In the case of one-handed point weapons, large amounts of power do not need to be transmitted through the weapon, so the grip is completely different. Really, your hand in that case is occupied with simply aiming the point at the target while the legs and arm propel it forward. With a katana, the hand forms the end of a complex armature directing force from the torso out to the edge of the blade and against the target.

At least, that's how I'd sum it up. I know next to nothing about fencing, however. My hand-eye coordination is TERRIBLE, and it seems that success in fencing depends in large part on that, which may explain why I've not done so well at it.

 

[Trainz]

Right you are. Your flexible Chinese sticks are quite scary. Though I find the inflexible Japanese sticks (the bo and the jo) more my style. John Q. Mayhem, you ought to feel no shame in studying with sticks. I do it myself on a regular basis.

Indeed.

I think I studied the same school as you did for 2 years. I did simultaneously Aikido and Kobudo, and the 3 weapons we were taught were boken (wooden katana), Bo (6 ' long staff) and Jo (about 3 ' long stick).

I was delighted to recognise some of the teachings in your descriptions (which are core japanese swordsmanship), especially the one where you draw the blade with the hand reversed on the handle.

I'd like to add that the main kata that uses that technique switches the hand grip to the standard two-handed hold after the initial upward strike, which supports the fact that, yes, while quite cool in movie scenes, someone keeping that grip forever in a duel would be probably cut down very quickly. I can't imagine you being able to keep control of the blade after the initial contact, it would move sideways in an uncontrollable manner, which would leave you quite open for a follow-up strike, making one's guts quite displayable for everyone to observe and admire.

Which is not to say that such techniques should not be used in movies. Equilibrium features super-warriors (the Clerics) whose skill border the inhumane. It is quite delightful to see such choregraphies.

But that's all they are really, wonderful choregraphies.

Speaking of which, The original Star Wars movies (AnH, ESB, RotJ) use classical japanese sword techniques. I even recognised some successions of moves that I practised in Kobudo (in ESB, when Luke slowly advances twice on Vader with his saber pointed at his throat).

However, in the newer movies (PM and AotC), the lightsaber techniques had little to do with classical japanese swordsmanship. While quite flashy and well choregraphed, if one pays attention, their sword weilding is quite sloppy and erratic, especially when deflecting laser-bolts. If anything, any skilled swordsman would look at these scenes and feel like they're swinging baseball bats (IMHO of course, that was MY feeling at least).

So I guess that's another strike against the newer SW movies. But that's veering a tad off-topic, so I'll stop now.