Katana wielding

[Dogbrain]

With a katana, the hand forms the end of a complex armature directing force from the torso out to the edge of the blade and against the target.

G. Silver, Gentleman, actually had this to say:

28. Remember in putting forth your sword point to make your space narrow, when he lies upon his Stocata, or any thrust, you must hold the handle thereof as it were along your hand, resting the pommel thereof in the hollow part of the middle of the heel of your hand towards the wrist, & the former part of the handle must be held between the forefinger & thumb, without the middle joint of the forefinger towards the top thereof, holding that finger somewhat straight out gripping round your handle with your other 3 fingers, & laying your thumb straight towards his, the better to be able to perform this action perfectly, for if you grip your handle close out-thwart in your hand, then you cannot lay your point straight upon his to make your space narrow, but that your point will still lie too wide to do the same in due time, & this is the best way to hold your sword in all kinds of variable fight.

But upon your guardant or open fight then hold it with full gripping it in your hand, & not laying your thumb along the handle, as some use, then shall you never be able to strongly to ward a strong blow.

He laid it out plain: When defending against someone who fights like a rapierist (one who "lies upon his Stocata"), one adopts a grip with the hand supinated, the forefinger extended (possibly hooked over the quillion), and the thumb along the blade--essentially the Italian rapier grip. When one is upon the guardant or open fight (old-fashioned hacking, so to speak), one must NOT use such a grip, since you cannot strongly defend against a strong blow.

 

[Dogbrain]

But then the short, cute, French exchange student swatted that lunge aside, moved inside my maai (to borrow a term) and broke her foil on my chest.

What she did was a riposte a la marchant (reply on the march), a riposte technique often used by the short against the tall. Her control could have been better--she hit you far harder than she should have.

 

[jerichothebard]

What she did was a riposte a la marchant (reply on the march), a riposte technique often used by the short against the tall. Her control could have been better--she hit you far harder than she should have.

Now THAT, I agree with! We were both pretty inexperienced at the time, and she got angry. She was very apologetic afterwards, which was cute. In an "I'm in agony over here, do you mind?" sorta way.

 

[barsoomcore]

I think I studied the same school as you did for 2 years.

Either Nakayama-kai Koaikido or Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu Kobudo

I was delighted to recognise some of the teachings in your descriptions (which are core japanese swordsmanship), especially the one where you draw the blade with the hand reversed on the handle.

I'd like to add that the main kata that uses that technique switches the hand grip to the standard two-handed hold after the initial upward strike, which supports the fact that, yes, while quite cool in movie scenes, someone keeping that grip forever in a duel would be probably cut down very quickly.

Just to be clear -- the technique I described is not one from either of the ryuha I've studied, but is one I read about in a book that describes Mu-Gai Ryu-Hyu Do. However, your point about the switch in the grip is absolutely correct and I agree with your assessment.

The original Star Wars movies (AnH, ESB, RotJ) use classical japanese sword techniques.

Oh, yes, most definitely.

However, in the newer movies (PM and AotC), the lightsaber techniques had little to do with classical japanese swordsmanship.

The domination of Chinese choreography is what we're seeing here. Most movie fight scenes nowadays feature Chinese-style choreography which is flashy and gymnastic and, let us say, ragged.

It's great stuff and I love it to bits, but every now and then I do long for something a little more straightforwardly deadly.

 

[takyris]

The domination of Chinese choreography is what we're seeing here. Most movie fight scenes nowadays feature Chinese-style choreography which is flashy and gymnastic and, let us say, ragged.

It's great stuff and I love it to bits, but every now and then I do long for something a little more straightforwardly deadly.

Strictly personal opinion, but I loved TPM's big end fight scene (while noting parts of it that were unpragmatic) and just plain loathed most of the Dooku-with-saber stuff at the end of AotC. The entirety of the Anakin/Dooku fight can be summed up with "They do movements slowly. Then they walk into areas with bad lighting, so all we can see are the blades. Then they zoom in on the faces so that we can't see the choreography. Then Anakin, for no reason, extends his arm out to the side to be lopped off."

I had issues with TPM, but I was never bummed with the fight scenes, even if I didn't find them incredibly pragmatic and realistic. I at least got "sense of combat, sense of people attempting to hit other people" out of it.

Sorry, end-segue.

 

[barsoomcore]

Yeah, the end fight in TPM is one of my favourite fight scenes of all time, and it's a perfect representation of why you need GOOD ACTORS to produce great fight scenes. What sells a fight scene more than anything is the performance of the people doing the fight. We have to believe that they're trying to kill each other, that they're desperately avoiding certain death, whatever. Without that conviction on the part of the actor, the best choreography in the world is just Ice Capades. Who cares?

What makes, say, Jackie Chan so great isn't that he's a better martial artist than anyone. Of course his skills are amazing, and that's important, but what really makes him the legend that he is is his ability to connect with the audience WHILE he's executing these incredible moves. Take Donnie Yen -- maybe just as good physically, but not as good an actor and so -- not the legend that Chan or Jet Li are.

And in that final fight in TPM, Ewan MacGregor and Liam Neeson give us so much in their performances, and Ray Park's skills are so strong that the whole thing is really a great, great sequence. After Qui-Gong dies, the reaction of Obi-Wan is goose-bump-causing. And it's that reaction that makes that final confrontation so powerful.

I've watched TPM many times just for that sequence. That, and the moment when Darth Maul ignites the second end of his lightsaber. I love that moment.

 

[Desdichado]

I've watched TPM many times just for that sequence. That, and the moment when Darth Maul ignites the second end of his lightsaber. I love that moment.

I bought TPM back when it wasn't scheduled to be released on DVD for who knew how long, and that, right there, is why I need to upgrade.

'Coz that's about the only scene that I want to rewatch.

 

[takyris]

Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Yes.

I think I ranted about this in another thread (or possibly on another board), about how, a few weekends ago while stuck on a business trip in the badlands of Denver, I watched, in rapid succession, a UPN-slashed version of Blade, an ABC-slashed version of "The Mummy Returns", HBO's "Daredevil", and some Steven Seagal movie. In Blade, even with the horrific editing ("Oh, no, blood in a vampire movie -- we must edit that out!"), I could tell that Blade wanted to kill those other guys. It was his goal in life. It was his dream. Even if he was doing a silly martial arts move that was more cinematic than practical, I believed it, because I felt with every fiber of my being that Wesley Snipes was going to effing kill somebody. The fact that he's a decent martial artist certainly doesn't hurt.

In "Mummy Returns", it was obvious that Brendan Fraser wasn't a martial arts expert, but it was also obvious that his character wasn't supposed to be -- and that his character was doing his darndest to survive, an athletic and desperate guy who was trying hard to make the other guy die before he did. And that worked for me. I don't even particularly love Brendan Fraser, but I believed in his character in that movie.

The Steven Seagal movie -- er, the Alaskan wilderness one with Marg Hegenberger, and also the one on the train, at some other point that weekend -- didn't wow me, mainly because it was obvious that yeah, Seagal knew what he was doing, but I didn't get any kind of character investment out of it. It wasn't flashy, and I suppose that that was good, but it also wasn't interesting. It was obvious that Seagal was going to win every fight, because he was the star, and that's what the star of the movie does, and look, now somebody is coming at him with a knife... He was demonstrating techniques well, but he still couldn't act, and so the entire movie consisted of "bad acting, bad acting, bad acting, Seagal-sensei demonstrates a knife defense, bad acting..."

And then, the sadness that was Daredevil -- for all that I loved the diner scenes and the use of special effects to imitate his senses, for all that I actually like Ben Affleck as an actor... the fights just bit. He didn't have the requisite skill to bring it off, and he was trying so hard to be a martial artist that he forgot to be an actor, and so the decently choreographed fights had all the visceral impact of "Singing in the Rain" -- step, step, hands up, step and turn, and I'm sure the foley will make it sound like I just did something impressive.

So yes. Totally agree. In all respects. And again, apologies for the segue.

 

[barsoomcore]

You BETTER apologize, you gonna say Singin' In The Rain got no visceral impact. You watch Cyd Charisse drape those legs of hers all over Gene Kelly and tell me nothing visceral is happening.

Anyone wanna diss Singin' In The Rain, they better wait till I'm out of the room. Cause I got this katana sitting RIGHT HERE....

...

Okay, I know what you mean. But the principle holds true in dance sequences as well as fight sequences. And Singin' In The Rain is one of the best examples of that you'll ever see. And it's maybe my favourite movie of all time, so I get a little defensive about it. Sorry about that.

Cookie?

 

[Desdichado]

... the decently choreographed fights had all the visceral impact of "Singing in the Rain" -- step, step, hands up, step and turn, and I'm sure the foley will make it sound like I just did something impressive.

You said in another post that we disagree on many things, taky, and here's a good one. Singing in the Rain has tons of visceral impact! Just... not in its fight scenes.