Keeping a Group Together

[SirAntoine]

The subject came up in a thread about whether a DM ever would change the hit points of monsters during an encounter. This is an example of "fudging", when the DM overrules what the dice say, or makes other modifications in the middle of play without the players' awareness.

I don't want DM's to worry if their players will leave or dislike them for doing this. Even if I didn't like it, I would never consider leaving a group over it, if it came to my attention. This thread is about how to encourage more patience and cooperation in a group. Let's say, for example, the DM is caught fudging something. I think he should say it was an accident, and offer to take it back if the players would like that. But I also encourage the DM to do this whenever he feels it's worth it, and keep it secret.

I don't feel it's something the DM has enough latitude to do in the open. There are too many players who would object, and if it would break a group apart, it certainly should be kept secret.

 

[Mishihari Lord]

Honesty's a bid deal to me. I don't lie. I don't fudge either, but if I did and was unable to duck the question I would admit it.

 

[SirAntoine]

Honesty's a bid deal to me. I don't lie. I don't fudge either, but if I did and was unable to duck the question I would admit it.

I'd just want the game to go on. I would object to the attention brought to the subject, and just invite the DM to tell us if the monster hit or something. The particulars of how the DM does things don't interest me as a player. I just want to stay immersed in my character's role, and minimize meta-game conversation.

 

[SirAntoine]

Everyone, remember it isn't cheating to do any modifications you want as DM. Whatever you are trying to accomplish, try to be fair to everyone and develop your own style and procedures.

Some good reasons to modify during the game are to a) keep a PC from dying (this is far and away the best reason), b) to end encounter quickly, c) to make an encounter last longer, d) to improve upon your work, and e) to keep the players guessing. They are all important tools every DM should embrace.

 

[Greenfield]

I once had a dispute with one of the more vocal members of my game group, and he had a lot of people stirred up over something that had happened in the game. I was actively concerned that the group would break up.

Then a friend gave me some advice which touched on a profound truth about gamers. He said, "You have a quality about you that says you will always have a game group. That special something that says they'll be there, no matter what. That quality? You're willing to run a game."

And he was right. The tempest ran out of teapot, and the campaign went on.

As for fudging numbers: Thw hit points listed in the book for monsters are an average for the hit dice. They aren't carved in stone.

They should, however, be etched in graphite once the encounter begins.

I know a DM who changes hit points, even whole encounters, mid stream. His explanation? "It's my job to challenge them." As in, raising the bar in mid-leap.

The effect is sharply discouraging on the players. They never bother to plan anything for an encounter because they know that no matter how well they can up their game, the opponents will be prepared with exactly the right spells, equipment and resources needed to thwart them.

The DM constantly complains about how lazy and stupid they are, pursuing only short term personal goals and more or less ignoring campaign objectives or potential long term consequences for their actions. He has only himself to blame, naturally, but he never sees that.

So design an encounter as an adversary would, then switch gears and DM it as an impartial referee would. Changing the rules in mid play is a bad idea, and the long term consequences really are a pain to deal with.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Everyone, remember it isn't cheating to do any modifications you want as DM. Whatever you are trying to accomplish, try to be fair to everyone and develop your own style and procedures.

Some good reasons to modify during the game are to a) keep a PC from dying (this is far and away the best reason), b) to end encounter quickly, c) to make an encounter last longer, d) to improve upon your work, and e) to keep the players guessing. They are all important tools every DM should embrace.

I agree that it is important to be fair to all players. Part of being fair to everyone is being honest with them. There is no better gaming than when the GM and players are all on the same page with regard to campaign style and focus. Being up front about the kind of game you prefer to run is the first step toward achieving that. Some potential players may not like the game you are offering and go elsewhere. Others may be looking for that exact type of game and flock to your table.

Knowing that everyone gathered together for the game has the same expectations and enthusiasm for your campaign is a great feeling.

 

[Grogg of the North]

Fudging isn't necessarily bad. Especially when, as a DM, you realize you've screwed up.

 

[SirAntoine]

I once had a dispute with one of the more vocal members of my game group, and he had a lot of people stirred up over something that had happened in the game. I was actively concerned that the group would break up.

Then a friend gave me some advice which touched on a profound truth about gamers. He said, "You have a quality about you that says you will always have a game group. That special something that says they'll be there, no matter what. That quality? You're willing to run a game."

And he was right. The tempest ran out of teapot, and the campaign went on.

As for fudging numbers: Thw hit points listed in the book for monsters are an average for the hit dice. They aren't carved in stone.

They should, however, be etched in graphite once the encounter begins.

I know a DM who changes hit points, even whole encounters, mid stream. His explanation? "It's my job to challenge them." As in, raising the bar in mid-leap.

The effect is sharply discouraging on the players. They never bother to plan anything for an encounter because they know that no matter how well they can up their game, the opponents will be prepared with exactly the right spells, equipment and resources needed to thwart them.

The DM constantly complains about how lazy and stupid they are, pursuing only short term personal goals and more or less ignoring campaign objectives or potential long term consequences for their actions. He has only himself to blame, naturally, but he never sees that.

So design an encounter as an adversary would, then switch gears and DM it as an impartial referee would. Changing the rules in mid play is a bad idea, and the long term consequences really are a pain to deal with.

Many DM's fudge things and have no problems, though.

 

[SirAntoine]

I agree that it is important to be fair to all players. Part of being fair to everyone is being honest with them. There is no better gaming than when the GM and players are all on the same page with regard to campaign style and focus. Being up front about the kind of game you prefer to run is the first step toward achieving that. Some potential players may not like the game you are offering and go elsewhere. Others may be looking for that exact type of game and flock to your table.

Knowing that everyone gathered together for the game has the same expectations and enthusiasm for your campaign is a great feeling.

I don't think so. There is no better gaming than... whatever each and every individual thinks. The players should let the DM run the game how they wish.

 

[SirAntoine]

Fudging isn't necessarily bad. Especially when, as a DM, you realize you've screwed up.

I like the signature.