Keith Baker (creator of Eberron) Q & A thread

[I'm A Banana]

I'm guessing this works in Eberron as it has in 99% of my campaigns:

Faith grants spells, Gods don't.

So while you may worship a particular deity, there's no divine babysitter sitting over your shoulder who's going to tell you when you're doing evil and when you're not. The fact that you worship is still important, since it's that power of faith and philosophy that allows you to manfiest spells without the aid of rigorous physical trianing (psion) or complex formulae (arcanist). But the fact that you worship is more important than WHAT you worship.

Which means that while someone who was trying to be a Good Person would never resort to, say, summoning a fiendish creature, if you do, you won't be penalized, because there's no personality to karmically whip you for stretching the reigns. There's just your faith, directed to a particular conceptualization and personalizatoin of a philosophy.

So, yes, you could have an athiest preist, a non-theist priest, a priest of banjo the puppet god, a priest of a particularly lovely lady, a priest of l33t n1nj4 p0w3r, a priest of yourself, or, in a particularly Pratchettesque moment, a priest of a turtle who swears that he's really a deity.

Of course, there being things to direct your worship to (these gods), it'd be weird for someone not to ally themselves with those who already practice worship and agree with your general ideas. An athiest wouldn't be accepted just because he can cure light wounds, too. But that doesn't mean he can't cure wounds, just that he's not in with the group who can.


I used this in a monotheistic campaign based off of Christian, Muslim, and Jewish mysticism, and it really helped explain why three different faiths can worship the exact same God and all be right, and also why someone in that world could not worship God, or worship Lucifer, and still gain divine powers. It helps add mystery to the deities, when they're not looking over your shoulder to see if you've been naughty or nice.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

From my reading of the book, mostly the fact that everyone appears to have the same gods no matter where they are,

I am arguing that there are gods, they provide spells with a certain character, inspire faith, and don't do much else.

The shards of the dragon also provide those spells for people who have a certain attitude and certain practices in common with those who do worship the gods.

 

[glass]

That's all well and good, but the fact that I don't have to obey the tenets of the faith to keep spellcasting powers is... weird. So I could go around burning libraries and braining sages and Aureon's still going to grant me my spells? The Devourer's still down with giving me healing spells to heal the sick and be kind to small children and animals? That almost seems to be direct evidence that the gods don't exist, at least not in the way most people conceptualize them.

Does it actually say that? I must have missed it.

In any case, I'd fall back on what I used to say to my players in 2e days when they tried to claim that because they didn't follow a particular god they could do what they liked and still keep their abilities:

'If there is no god involved, there is noone to forgive you!'


glass.

 

[Henry]

Strictly speaking, I could get behind all those faith-based examples, except for a strictly atheist priest. I would say, that in order to cast, you must place faith in SOMETHING - even if it's the turtle who swears he's a deity. Or a philosophy. Or even yourself - I would think you're more humanist in that instance.

What name WOULD you give to the faith that YOU are a god - Solipsism?

 

[Klaus]

Egocentism?

 

[fredramsey]

Michael Valentine Smithism?

(Thou art God, Grok me?)

What name WOULD you give to the faith that YOU are a god - Solipsism?

 

[Gargoyle]

It is interesting to note that paladins are still mystically held to a high standard of behavior, and cannot become corrupt without losing their powers. It seems that clerics gain their power from a source ungoverned by the deity or church, while paladins gain their power directly from a source of power (faith/deity/pantheon/force/church/philosophy/themselves) that is governed by someone or something (faith/deity/pantheon/force/church/philosophy/themselves).

The faith that clerics seem to be tapping into must be their own faith, and their skill at casting divine spells reinforces this faith even if they stray from the tenets of the church. Nowhere does it say (that I can find) that a church can excommunicate them, so it is not the faith of the church that powers a clerical spell. So most corrupted clerics probably believe that they are doing the right thing, or at least convince themselves of as much. "I had to summon that demon, it was the only way to save the village" or "So I took some money from the coffers, I know how best to spend it for the glory of our god." or "Of course I am doing the right thing by hiring this vampire, otherwise how could I be receiving power from the Silver Flame."

My conclusion is that the various mortal churches must be paranoid organizations who constantly oversee their clerics yet simultaneously depend on them for their power. I can imagine ocassional battles between the church and corrupt clerics, where player characters would be needed to assist the church or a falsely accused cleric. I could easily see a paladin being sent to watch for corrupt clerics of a lawful good religion. Here comes the inquisition!

I would be interested in Keith's take on adding the favored soul core class to Eberron from Complete Divine/Miniature's Handbook. I think I would put them in the same boat as paladins, since they are best implemented as being faithful to a particular deity rather than a pantheon or philosophy. Demographically, I would make them more rare than clerics, with perhaps no NPC favored souls.

 

[Hellcow]

Just checking, Terramotus -- have you read the Religion in Eberron article on the Wotc website?

So I could go around burning libraries and braining sages and Aureon's still going to grant me my spells? The Devourer's still down with giving me healing spells to heal the sick and be kind to small children and animals? That almost seems to be direct evidence that the gods don't exist, at least not in the way most people conceptualize them.

This is ultimately up to the DM. My fundamental feeling is this: if the cleric can justify her actions within her faith, she's golden. So the cleric of Aureon could burn down a library if it's full of "false, tainted knowledge" (in her eyes, and quite possibly only her eyes). This would likewise be how you get your chaotic priest of Aureon. In her *view* she is serving the god, and it is her faith that matters. Does this mean that there is no Aureon? Not necessarily. It means that Aureon responds to her faith and isn't watching over her shoulder or carefully considering her every action; because of her faith, she comes up OK on the god-o-meter.

Next, you have the adept of Aureon who isn't terribly devout and is more about taking bribes to give people government positions. I like this less that what I descried above, but you can argue that he isn't actively going against the goals of Aureon, so if he performs all the right rituals and goes to all the services, that gets him off the hook.

Finally, you have the "Cleric of Aureon" who flat-out hates knowledge and wants to burn down libraries because books suck. This I wouldn't allow as a DM, because such a person clearly has no faith in the religion they profess to have. ALignment isn't the issue -- belief is.

So in short: you can go against the commonly perceived traditions of the church if you have strong enough faith, and you can have weak faith if you are true to the traditions, but if you have neither faith or tradition, I'd make you pick a different religion.

It's stated that clerics without a deity gain their power "from the spiritual remnants of the Dragon Above". Is this where all clerics gain their power?

Many scholars of the Twelve believe that this is the case. Some say that divine power comes from Siberys, and arcane power comes from Eberron. But this has never been proven, and many consider it to be a heretical belief.

What's necessary to channel this power? Could I be an athiest priest?

Quoting the Religion in Eberron article, "it still requires a strong commitment to an ideal or a philosophy". Basically, you can devise your own religion -- but it's still a matter of a deeply held spiritual belief. So you can't be a cleric who believes in nothing at all. And if you're just cherry-picking domains, you need to justify how those domains form the basis of your system of beliefs, and the DM has the right to say "bull."

Further, and I can't recall if I gathered this from somewhere I can't now find in the book, or whether I've pulled this from the numerous posts I've read about the setting, but I recall that religion is more of an article of faith - no direct communication from the gods, no obvious divine intervention. Some people believe, some people don't. This seems to jive with all of the above. Is this a correct interpretation of how religion works in Eberron? Am I missing something?

Pretty much. Yes, you get guidance from commune, but the atheist can argue that it's coming from the collective unconscious or a powerful outsider. You can summon a planar ally, but this is simply an outsider who shares your religious beliefs. If you believe, you may see divine intervention in what others consider to be simple good fortune. But the gods do not walk the earth.

 

[Hellcow]

What name WOULD you give to the faith that YOU are a god - Solipsism?

I don't know. But when someone asks if you're a god, you say YES!

 

[Hellcow]

I would be interested in Keith's take on adding the favored soul core class to Eberron from Complete Divine/Miniature's Handbook. I think I would put them in the same boat as paladins, since they are best implemented as being faithful to a particular deity rather than a pantheon or philosophy. Demographically, I would make them more rare than clerics, with perhaps no NPC favored souls.

I agree with all of this. I might not say that there are NO NPC favored souls -- in some ways they're a good match for the Cults of the Dragon Below -- but certainly very rare.